The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: hodman on May 29, 2008, 10:04:52 AM
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I have read on this board. In many places that it's all about shot placement. I would tend to agree that shot placement is critical, especially on minor caliber rounds. I believe that one of the key elements to shot placement, consistently and on-demand and especially under stress is training and conditioning. I could quote, many experts who say that the best conditioning once a basic set of skills have been acquired is competition. That being said, the purpose of this question that I'm asking is to determine how much the members of this board are actually participating in some type of competition.
For the purpose is to this question. I would define handgun competition to have three elements.
1. It must involve a timer.
2. Accuracy must matter.
3. Scores must be published.
Taking a great line from the movie “The ghost in the darkness”, everyone in a fight has a plan until they get knocked down. It's been my experience, when the buzzer goes off and people are watching you just got knocked down.
My competition regiment is the following each Monday. I shoot either USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, or 22 action. At least one weekend a month I shoot an additional IDPA match and one US PSA match.
I know the next thing it's going to be said is competition is not the same as training, and I agree. The competition is certainly what he keeps the edge sharp. I would also like to know if anyone out there feels that they have a substitute for competition to keep the edge sharp. If you have tried competition, but are not currently participating why?
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I don't have a place to shoot outdoors anymore and am retired so I can't afford the high tarrif to join a club so I shoot in 2 matches a month. Sometimes at the IDPA match I shoot a reshoot or different division but that is about it.
Richard
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Here we have a pretty active IDPA club with two matches a month plus a 3 Gun match using modified IDPA rules. There are two different USPSA clubs within a couple hours drive that hold matches once a month. I try to get to one of teh available matches every month but one of the local matches and the bigger USPSA match is the same day usually plus on a weekend I'm away.
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I train as much as I can, but competition is not training ,its a game. When you tailor your way of shooting to beat a timer or win the game you do yourself a disservice and create bad habits. If you like the game you should stick to proven learned responses and techniques and not short yourself. just my 02.
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I don't have the time :'(
been 3x in the last 2 years... 5 years ago it was twice a month.
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I shoot cowboy action matches, been trying to get to a practical pistol match, been I've been lazy and haven't made it...
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I train as much as I can, but competition is not training ,its a game. When you tailor your way of shooting to beat a timer or win the game you do yourself a disservice and create bad habits. If you like the game you should stick to proven learned responses and techniques and not short yourself. just my 02.
I'd have to disagree. Yes, if you only use competition for your "tactical" training then you will probably make mistakes in a real gunfight. If you are smart enough to get the right training and then apply those skills in competition you will do better in a gunfight. Sure there are rules that constrain the way you would solve a shooting problem that you wouldn't use in the real world but last time I checked all training environments did. There is a reason that a lot of police agencies promote officers to attempt USPSA and IDPA matches as an addition to training. Shooting sports magazines (Front Sight-USPSA, Tactical Journal-IDPA) and Firearms Instructor Magazine (Int'l Assoc of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors) either have regular columns or periodic articles on the benefits of using competition for LEOs. If it's good for them than it's a safe bet its good for others. Just use it as an adjunct to proper TRAINING.
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I train as much as I can, but competition is not training ,its a game. When you tailor your way of shooting to beat a timer or win the game you do yourself a disservice and create bad habits. If you like the game you should stick to proven learned responses and techniques and not short yourself. just my 02.
I dont know of one professional trainer who says dont shoot the games (I know several who even like SASS). The reason I started shooting IDPA is a trainer (who did not start it) recomended it. Now I will shoot just about anything (even sporting clays 4th worst shooter behind MB)
I would be interested to hear a trainer (top level) who says dont shoot the games.
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I shoot IDPA every weekend...sometimes 2 matches (one on Saturday, one on Sunday). I am the IDPA match director at our club and put on a match once a month. I am pretty lucky in the fact that there are several clubs in the area that put on monthly matches as well...and we have it worked out so that we don't interfere with each other's schedules. The down side...500 rounds a month gets pretty expensive now days (even reloading).
Training is by far the most important thing you can do...but competition is the best way to commit what you've learned to your sub-concious. When I first started shooting IDPA...I would now exactly how to draw, proper grip stance, trigger control, etc... As soon as the buzzer went off, it was like I suddenly became brain damaged. Under pressure, you will revert back to what's been committed to muscle-memory. But, this led me to identify defecincies. This would make practice sessions more productive, as I was working to improve a certain skill.
Now, when the buzzer goes off...I no longer think about grip, trigger, stance. Now those things just happen without me thinking about them. I compete with several LEOs every weekend, and they seem to agree that competition is the best way to keep your edge.
Just my 2 cents (after taxes).
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I used to shoot IDPA matches weekly but other things have taken me away from it. Now I shoot about once or twice a month. I can tell you that a lay off does affect your shooting ability. I am a 4 gun expert in IDPA. That is where I took my fourm name from, 4gun. I can tell you that I do not currently have that ability now. Due to the lack of shooting. But I am trying to get back into it. although my age has slowed me down a bit, but my aim is very good.
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I used to shoot IDPA every week , but stopped a couple of years ago. I never seem to have time, anymore, to practice and shoot on a regular basis.
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Hodman, I do not disagree, competition as a compliment to training go's hand in hand. Now like imperfect training makes imperfect scores or bad habits. I would first say, "what do you want out of competition?" If you want to compliment your training, then do as you were taught, if it is legal in that sport, use the firearm you want to be great with, and use the techniques you were taught if legal. If your a personal defense/tactical type, then shoot the match that way. What competition does besides adding stress, is give you measureable results to your progress. My line has always been " competition teaches me to think, with a gun in my hands". I also think competition makes you reach farther into yourself, than you would if you were alone.
If you want to win trophy's then play that way, get gamie, if thats your cup of tea.
If you want to be really accurate, then play that type of game, and do you want to be accurate offhand, in position or off the bench, there is a game for each.
I have one of those personalities that if I can't be really good, I don't want to play. Except for sporting clays, I don't suck, but I'm not competitive. I just don't want to put in the time and money to be great at that, but I do like the game.
My resume.
Started shooting competition in 1982, mainly to become a better what we call now, " tactical shooter"
Ipsc in the old days when we shot off ropes and ramps, from moving vehicles and over 12' high walls. We did weak hand draws, weak hand reloads, weak hand clearance drills that would make a modern day range officer have a coronary. We had hot ranges where your hand gun was loaded all the time you were there. This was truly Mecca, We were doing real world drills as a learning curve and I still have these skills today. This was the very practical side of Ipsc. Then it went gamie and I did not want to play, I wanted to be a marshal artist with a gun.
Metallic silhouette both small bore and large bore, AAA RATING IN BOTH. Great sport by the way, especially if shot with a normal handgun, you learn what your pistol is capable of, and how to adjust your sights and read the wind. I did shoot a TC Contender with rifle scopes to achieve AAA status, but as time went on, I liked shooting revolvers and .22 autos with irons for fun.
NRA action shooting, ( Bianchi Cup stuff ) Master rating although I never went to the cup, 2nd in state ( Texas ) and I really like that match. Not tactical but teaches you what you can do perfectly in a certain amount of time.
Steel plate speed shooting, How much fun. Our local club did not shoot Steel Challenge stages, but 2 different brands, one that shot out to 35 yard and the other that is up close and speedy.
Tactical and Personal protection matches that our local club puts on, more like IPDA but done much earlier and with higher penalties for over exposure to danger and not using cover.
NRA US service rifle, you have to use a rifle used by the US military in externally equal dimensions to the original. The best game in may opinion for learning how to really shoot, read the wind and mirage, learn your sight adjustments, sling positions and shooting positions. You truly are shooting against yourself. I have 8 points toward becoming distinguished, need 30.
NRA Bullseye, I don't shoot it enough, but have an expert rating.
Air pistol, International style, one handed 60 shot matches, Hard Hard game, teaches you follow through to the inth degree. rating sharpshooter, tough tough tough.
Bowling pin matches, only been to one, and got to shoot against Jerry Miculek, We were both very young, and he beat me.
Glock matches, been to at least 8, usually in the top 10, 1 year like 18th, my bad. Best 2nd with my model 21, my favorite.
Tactical shotgun, love it, just need a little time to go back and play.
3 gun, love it, just not enough time to play, and local stuff is 125 miles away.
Chevrolet team challenge, the most fun match I've ever been to, Did that for about 3 years in it's infancy, would like to do that again. When it's your turn, no time to BS, churn and burn.
USPSA, did it, I can't really talk about it, bad Mojo between me and my area directors as well as Sedro Wooley. If you like the game play it.
ICORE, revolvers are my favorite, shot it for about a year, and then my Mom got really sick, I did come in 3rd at the midwest regional shoot in Kansas, 1999. after that my Mom died and my work load became too much to play much. I am desperately trying to get back into it. I'm a much better person when I shoot.
Probably more, I'm a chief range officer certified by the national range officers institute. Have ro'd matches for over 25 years, I love shooting and all it has to offer. The one thing that I would like every one to know, is how many shooters prime out in their later years, 50+. I think it takes that long to overcome all the natural obstructions to shooting really well.
Now for the commercial.
If you want to be a really good shooter, practice and play in shooters games.
If you want to be a marshal artists, play the games your way, with the equipment, you want to be great with, and let the winning be secondary. A lot of my predecessors would come to plate matches and defense matches with their J frames and Sp101's or .380's just to shoot that pistol in competition with no hope of winning, but to get great practice.
I was a decalathon shooter for many years, I really did'nt care what I shot, as long as I shot. I helped me to become what I modestly call a good shooter. I've been out of the game for about 8 years, although I do compete occasionally. Now that I'm 50, I hope to reach my peak.
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The range I belong to shoots IDPA on weds. nights I work nights :(
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To m25operator
My hats off to you! I shot practical shooting in the 1980s with the likes of Bill Wilson Mike Plaxco and other pioneers. I think in a box somewhere I still have a Chapman high-rise cross draw holster. You make some great points but I think the most salient one you made is a great shooter can transfer his skills to his training but shooting is a perishable skill. If you don't hone the blade the blade will become dull.
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Okay this question has to some degree started to become competition, versus training. I will agree that competition is not training IDPA included. However, competition is the best form of practice. To borrow another line from the famous movie Tombstone when the question comes “are you going to skin that smoke wagon” I think competition is the best way to get under stress repetitions that you need to answer that question successfully. If we are going to carry the minor caliber pistols and rely on shot placement competition seems to be the litmus test for being able to produce an aimed cold shot under pressure on demand. I fully intend once this thread has run its course to begin asking questions about training to that end, I have some questions that are not at all sarcastic, but are truly sincere.
Can someone name for me, a major technique that was not born in some competition.
Can someone name for me, a major gun innovation that was not born in some form of competition. Hell, I remember when a 1911 was a gun you bought and sent to the gunsmith, before competition forced the manufacture of ready to shoot guns out of the box.
I would submit to you that these so-called “gamers” are where the real innovation occurs. And then it is filtered down to everyone else. I would ask, what has been born in training. That is then made its way to competition.
Again, these are not rhetorical questions. These questions I've asked myself, and I genuinely am interested in answers to.
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m25...dude, I stand in awe!
I started shooting "combat" back in 1979 after several years of bullseye. And yes, I LOVED those matches, Cooper tunnels, swinging bridges, back-of-pickup truck, Rhodesian walls, weak-hand draws and all. That was the crucible that made us pretty good shooters. Have shot pretty much everything else — USPSA (Limited, Production, Single Stack); IDPA; cowboy; Western 3-Gun, which is sort of IPSC with cowboy guns; a little revolver which is Big Fun; various rifle stuff; some 3-gun, a few Glock-y matches; various .22 competitions and, as mentioned here, I am one of the 3 worst sporting clays shooters on earth.
The "false stress" of competition is stress nonetheless, and competition is an amazing teacher of gun-handling techniques. I can always spot a competition=trained shooter when it comes to clearing jams.
Competition is, as hodman has noted, the proving ground...the gamiest edge is where the innovations come from, which is a good thing whether you want to play there or not. The "super deluxe game gear" that I (and I suspect m25) hammered out in the early 1980s are now standard equipment (as a friend of mine who runs a major gun company once quipped to me, "We sell IPSC guns to people who can't spell IPSC!").
Michael B
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Good comments from all and I agree with most. I will say I think the person who shoots most , wether it be game shooting or defense training will have the edge when crunch time comes. There is alot to be said for trigger time, the more you handle a handgun the more proficient you will be. My thought in my first post was that just because you can run around and compete in a very choreographed atmosphere, you should not retain those movements and drills to the point that it effects your reaction when you need to react in a gun fight. I hope that makes sense.
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I agree with the point m25 made about choosing to shoot matches to improve the skills you're interested in and don't worry about winning the trophies unless that's why you're there. I started shooting IPSC in the early 90's and the matches helped me even when I wasn't the match winner and I think that the more rounds you put downrange the more your skills and confidence in them improve. And I've met some really nice people at the range and made some long lasting friendships which has a value of it's own. :)
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Shoot SASS matches regularly, and am looking to try IDPA and 3 gun soon. ;) ;) 8)
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m25,
Wow! Do you have a job? ;) Gracious sakes what an impressive array of competitive accolades!
I shoot Cowboy matches about twice a month or so. Love it!
Wheelgun
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Let me start off by stating that nothing, and I mean nothing, has improved my weapon handling skills like competition. Having said that (and before I have to put on the flame suit) understand that there are generally four components to the serious social use of a weapon.
(in no particular order)
1- Skills
2- Tactics
3- Equipment/gear/weapons etc.
4- Mindset
I completely agree with those that say that competition is not training. Real training involves developing/sharpening the whole skill set, but does that mean that working on selected individual portions of those skill sets is not valid? I think not. Too many people try to make competition something that it's not. It IS a game. Anything that uses a timer will quickly become a game. At that point it's all about beating the clock, not working the skill set. This begs the question, "What will competition do for you or where does it fit into the skill set package?" Clearly, competition develops some of your individual skills. While it does not work every skill that is needed for social work, it does work several of the critical ones, including one of the most important, speed. As the saying goes, "Speed kills." The standard in law enforcement is to react to a stimulus (buzzer/timer) and draw and fire 2 rounds in 3 seconds on a 7 yard threat. The standard for a Master class IPSC shooter is to react to a stimulus and draw and fire 6 rounds (all "A" Zone, mind you) in less than 2 seconds on a 7 yard target. Does this skill translate to the real world? Absolutely! More rounds, more accurately, in less time, who wouldn't want that skill? The days of shooting a threat 2 times and "assessing" is over. There are only 2 possible outcomes when facing a deadly threat. Either the threat's weapon hits the ground and he surrenders or the threat AND the weapon hit the ground. If I don't see the first reaction, I'm going to keep tapping the trigger until I get the second reaction, regardless of whether it takes 1 round or 10.
Does competition do anything for tactics? For the most part, no. Remember it's a game, don't try to make it something that it's not.
Does competition do anything for your equipment? Yes, it allows you to test your gear, equipment, and to a degree, your weapons in the crucible of competition. The average competition shooter will shoot several thousands of rounds per year. My personal average is around 30K per year. Competition shooters are brutal on equipment and weapons. I remember shooting my one competition gun during the summer and it got so hot I couldn't touch it anymore. So I turned on the car's A/C to max and put the pistol in front of the vents to cool it off while I reloaded magazines. Do you know how many rounds it takes to heat a polymer pistol up so much that it hurts you to touch it? Lets just say it takes a crapload of ammo. If my compeition gun can handle that kind of abuse, then my identical carry gun has my full and complete confidence.
What about mindset? Well, to some degree. Not necessarily a "combat" mindset, but it does condition you to not give up. When you have a malfunction or make a mistake, you have to fix it on the fly and keep working to finish the stage. You don't quit or give up. It does develope your perserverance and inner fortitude. It also helps develope weapons skill manipulations under some level of stress. You'll hear competition shooters say, "Man, that buzzer went off and my mind went blank!" If a buzzer will do that to you, what's a pistol in your face gonna do? Any stress in you practice/training is better than no stress. The more you train in a stressfull environment, the better you'll operate in a stressfull environment, and competition does a pretty good job at creating an uncomfortable environment.
So to end this long sermon and step off my soapbox, competition is not training, but competition shooting does help develope some of the skills set used in serious training. Don't try to substitute competition for training, but don't dismiss it as useless. Put competition shooting in the proper skill set contexts and you'll see your overall skill set increase considerably.
USSA-1
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USSA-1
Well said, I think you said it better than I did!
Competition is an important PART but still a Part.
Jon
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I have not shot in competition but I want too. Money is the big reason I have not. I hope to be able to shoot in competition someday.
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I have not shot in competition but I want too. Money is the big reason I have not. I hope to be able to shoot in competition someday.
Same here,
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I've never shot in a competition. I'm just not very competitve by nature, as long as I'm not hungry.
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I've never shot in a competition. I'm just not very competitve by nature, as long as I'm not hungry.
My only interest in ANY competition is having a guage to judge my own ability, In games I don't much care about winning and losing so much as doing my best and seeing where that puts me in relation to others, meeting like minded people and picking up tips is an added benifit.
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I have not shot in competition but I want too. Money is the big reason I have not. I hope to be able to shoot in competition someday.
I thought the same thing. I figured that I had to have a $4000 pistol and a $300 holster rig to copmete but that isn't true anymore. I use the same Glock I plink with and the holster that cost me $30 plus a $20 mag pouch. Shooting IDPA (any class) or USPSA Production are specifically designed for the "straight from the box" pistol and inexpensive gear. USPSA Limited can be shot well with stock guns, you'll just be a bit outclassed at the higher level matches with the expensive modified guns. USPSA Single Stack is all about the basic 1911. The biggest expense is the ammo and match fee (local matches can be 1-300 rounds and $20). Check out the USPSA website www.uspsa.org they have a pretty good intro video
GET OUT AND SHOOT IT!!!
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I shoot CAS/SASS once or twice a month. I have friends, who can afford the gas ($$$), that shoot every weekend.
;D
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5 or six times
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As a former federal officer, firearms instructor and having competed in Police Combat this question is extremely interesting. Training and competition are both valuable to anyone interested in mastering skills in the various shooting disciplines. I like USSA1's summary "So to end this long sermon and step off my soapbox, competition is not training, but competition shooting does help develope some of the skills set used in serious training. Don't try to substitute competition for training, but don't dismiss it as useless. Put competition shooting in the proper skill set contexts and you'll see your overall skill set increase considerably."
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I train as much as I can, but competition is not training ,its a game. When you tailor your way of shooting to beat a timer or win the game you do yourself a disservice and create bad habits. If you like the game you should stick to proven learned responses and techniques and not short yourself. just my 02.
The trick is using your training in the competition.
Who cares if you get point/time deductions for deviating from COF. Just use the experience to test your skills under stress. Only when you start trying to win will you develop those bad habits.
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Well having let this run for several months now it seems clear that about half of the people who answered the question are into competition. It has also sparked some great talks about the good of competition. I have been giving some thought about training and what is training vs shooting. I am working on another poll about training.
Thanks to every one for taking part in this poll.
Jon
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I envy people who can spend all their time shooting. I would shoot alot more if I did not live in town. Luckily, someone invinted Airsoft, other wise my trigger time would be few and far between. I would shoot more IDPA, but my area club has lost its cooridinator. Plus I have to drive an hour to shoot IDPA. Until gas goes down, the budget will not allow me to pay for gas and ammo.
I have been practicing alot here lately, becasue I am trying out for an instructor position with a top notch training facility. If God reads chat rooms, then insert a small preyer here...Amen
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I answered 6 to 12 times a year, but our club runs two matches a month, so it's really more like 12-24 times a year.
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I have just taken up cowboy shooting and sadly have only gone to one match this year. I am looking foward to when school starts back up and I have a more rigid schedule. My local club shoots indoor during the winter w/o the shotgun and it is great fun. I am not sure how much of a training value there is to it but it is good to shoot under the stress of a clock and fellow shooters watching.
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I am shooting at least once per weekend. Sometimes both Saturday and Sunday.
At my local club, we have 2 steel matches a month. The match fee is only a buck and we shoot 8 stages. NOPE! Not necessarily the Piru 8, but 8 stages nonetheless.
Also, at my local club we have one USPSA match a month.
At another club, we have an IDPA style match every Thursday night, at least til the sun starts setting too soon.
Some shooting buddies and I carpool and go to the other "local, club" matches.
As far as the training vs. competition goes, ME? what do I think? I think the mall ninja tactibilly's have their ego's too easily bruised when they have their butts handed to them in a competition.
That's why they poo-poo IDPA and USPSA so much. In my opinion.
Speed is a tactic, and a pretty good one at that. ;)
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Tyler,
Watched your videos. Pretty interesting and looks like fun. Guess I better check and see if we have anything like that.
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The only way to keep your skills up is regular competitive shooting. I shoot ICORE and IDPA once a month in each discipline and try to get in three or four 3-Gun and 600 yard competitions per year too. Yeah, it costs, so much that I had to take an evening part-time job to pay for ammo and now, gas to drive out to the range. But my shooting skills are far better than they were five years ago when I resumed shooting and my confidence is back where it belongs too.
I get my butt kicked by far more experienced shooters every month but I also learn something from these guys and am now to the point where I can visualize the shot before it's taken and know where a shot may well cover a bystander in an actual threat event. Next year (2009) comes a pair of visits to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch and then onwards and upwards from there.
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Tyler, glad to see you back. You are a lucky dog to be able to shoot so often. ;D
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I shoot IDPA twice or three times a month ( my club has 3 matches a month, I can usually make 2 of them, sometimes all 3 ). I also try to dry practice 1-2 hours a week, just to practice things I can't do on the range. ie= drawing from a holster or moving while firing.
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I train as much as I can, but competition is not training ,its a game. When you tailor your way of shooting to beat a timer or win the game you do yourself a disservice and create bad habits. If you like the game you should stick to proven learned responses and techniques and not short yourself. just my 02.
Bah humbug. Competition simultaneously improves your gun handling skills, increases your speed and accuracy, and makes you safer. It gives you a realistic understanding of your gun and your abilities. I can't imagine any training regimen for self defense that wouldn't include those elements. Just because a real life threat may not look like the Steel Challenge, I'm not going to say that shooting Steel Challenge isn't good training.
Consider - why do military and law enforcement agencies have teams, sponsor competitions, and encourage participation in our sports?
For that matter, why do basketball players practice their shots when there is no opposing team? Why do football players run laps? Why do baseball players lift weights?
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Hot Damn!!!
The big clender on the desk says that one week from tomorrow starts the league time:
One week rimfire bullseye and the next centerfire bullseye;
One week smallbore and the other light rifle.
Four leagues to carry through the winter ;D
The check has cleared the bank, so the Pro-Am is a go ... as far as I know ;D
Only bummer is that by the time the family gave the oky dokey the Western States Single Stack was filled :'(
Need to find something to do in that time frame that will be fun for me, give the wife a break, be warm, and go bang ... a lot of bang would be good ;)
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I shoot USPSA Production Division once a month. I shoot IDPA (SSP) twice a month. I use a Glock 19. It is stock except for the Heinie sights. During the summer, I use the same pistol in Man-on-Match falling steel plate matches that run locally in Northern Nevada. The benefits of competition have already been stated above. Nonetheless, let me add that anyone who disrespects competition is a person who is afraid to learn, to put it midly. Open your mind to the benefits of competition and get out there and shoot. A person can currently get into Production Division or SSP with an expense of about $800. After that expense, it is only ammo, gas, match fees, and what to have for lunch.
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Trevor,
You need to put the word "only" in front of the $800 to get into it instead of the expensive ammo, travel, match fees, etc. ;D
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USPSA once a week, minimum, sometimes twice. If there's not a Sunday match for USPSA, I shoot steel matches at Dallas Pistol Club. It used to be 3 days a week, but our Wednesday night match range got flooded out. I shoot IDPA very occasionally now.
I count the primer trays of rounds I load annually. This year, I quit counting after 13,000 rounds.
Competition shooting is where it's at. You get to fling tons of rounds downrange, sure. I shoot a lot more rounds practicing. But the real fun is shooting with your friends and making new ones.
BTW - those who poop on competition as "not training" are full of it. Speed IS a tactic. Don't believe it? Let's do some force-on-force.
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Now I shoot in a rimfire match once a month. I shoot pistol and rifle. It has really got me even more interested in shooting and now I am looking at other forms of competition. Shooting in competition is way more fun than I could have imagined.
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I practice 20 rnds every day. I am lucky enough to have my own range 30yds from the house.
Shoot IDPA 5 to 6 times a year and USPSA a couple of times a year.
I just enjoy it, and you never know when it will come in handy
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I train as much as I can, but competition is not training ,its a game. When you tailor your way of shooting to beat a timer or win the game you do yourself a disservice and create bad habits. If you like the game you should stick to proven learned responses and techniques and not short yourself. just my 02.
Hate to be the bad guy who crosses Jerry Miculek,Mannie Bragg,Bob Vogel ect,ect. Mixing it up with proven learned responces and competition, a cross training of sort. Would make anyone better. JMO
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I shoot in competition a minimum of 4 times a month. Usually 5. While it may not be the best training for learning tactics, it really helps get you up to speed on gun handling skills and shooting under pressure. Those have got to be a plus in a real fight! Anyone who disagrees with that has never done any competition shooting, and darn sure no force on force!!!
s45