The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Tyler Durden on February 14, 2024, 02:15:16 PM
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USPSA is the United Practical Shooting Association.
It is the American arm of the International Practical Shooting Confederation (Ip-Sick).
To make a long story short USPSA HQ was or is in charge on putting on the various national levels matches. It came to light recently that somehow HQ was going in the hole by about $600,000 for each nationals level match they put on.
In previous years, HQ would group the nationals by like calling it “The Hi Cap Nat’s” which would be for the open division and limited division guns. Then there would be the “Lo Cap Nat’s” for Production division guns and revolvers. And then there would be a separate Single Stack Nat’s for 1911’s.
USPSA HQ is kinda run like a franchise. The local clubs/ranges were like franchisees….kinda like Mickey Dee’s.
The local clubs were responsible for forwarding $3 per shooter for their classifier stage score to be submitted. IIRC, there was also an additional two or three dollars per shooter tacked on for an”activity fee”.
So with the latest money fiasco and other shenanigans, a lot of clubs have decided to dis-affiliate from USPSA. They would continue putting on matches, but they would call them “outlaw matches” or “hit factor” matches.
Some of the BoD members at HQ tried to curb that by applying for a trademark for “hit factor”.
They got to learn first hand what the “Streissand effect” is.
So they legally/officially abandoned that trademark’ing effort.
Anywhoooo… it is quite the soap opera drama llama train wreck that has been unfolding.
Which is a shame really because it kind of is Jeff Cooper’s legacy. In fact, one of Cooper’s classifier stages called the El Presidente or El Prez is still in use after 30 plus years. Shooting that stage in under 4 seconds is akin to running a 4 minute mile.
USPSA/IPSC spun up some big names in the shooting sports:
Rob Leatham
Doug Koenig
Jerry Barnhart
Brian Enos (yes, the forum creator)
Jerry Miculek
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I think it's a genuine hot steaming mess at this point. At SHOT people kept stopping me and telling me one more bad thing after the other. I have no idea how they're going to sort all this crap out...
mb
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This is tragic. I'm on the outside but this looks a lot like whoever is voted in as prez is pretty much a figurehead? That leaves the staff with all the power and no real accountability if that assessment is correct?
Ya'll can delete my post but running that thing on the left coast in a liberal state just above Seattle...not the best decision in my book. It should be headquartered "in the thick of it" which I doubt is Washington state.
My 2 cents as a non-member. That and...a forensic accounting consultant to determine where the blood letting wounds are.
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Small group dynamics always sucks.
mb
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I think it's a genuine hot steaming mess at this point. At SHOT people kept stopping me and telling me one more bad thing after the other. I have no idea how they're going to sort all this crap out...
mb
I have heard/read that a lot of sponsors have jumped ship.
Even the Sig Academy has stopped hosting USPSA matches.
I think for the time being outlaw “hit factor” matches and Practical Competition Shooting League matches will fill the void.
https://www.pcsleague.com/
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This is tragic. I'm on the outside but this looks a lot like whoever is voted in as prez is pretty much a figurehead? That leaves the staff with all the power and no real accountability if that assessment is correct?
Ya'll can delete my post but running that thing on the left coast in a liberal state just above Seattle...not the best decision in my book. It should be headquartered "in the thick of it" which I doubt is Washington state.
My 2 cents as a non-member. That and...a forensic accounting consultant to determine where the blood letting wounds are.
I used to be a volunteer (as in not paid) match director for both USPSA and Steel Challenge. That was about 12 years ago.
What still grinds my gears to this day is HQ never put anything in place to help new clubs get cardboard targets and steel targets at a discounted price. At that time, 12 years ago, the going rate for full size 42” tall pepper poppers was $250 each.
To get our first set of Steel Challenge targets one of my regular shooters requested a grant from the NRA. They were nice enough to send us a $5,000 check.
I absolutely agree with you that some forensic accounting firm needs to go through their books with a fine tooth comb.
HQ just announced two weeks ago that they were going to jack up the match entry fee for the 2024 National matches to $400 per entry.
There were 420 competitors at the 2019 Hi Cap Nat’s.
ASSuming that there are 50 Range Officers and staff for the match, that knocks it down to 370 paying customers.
That still comes out to $148,000 .
I am ASSuming the competitors still have to pay for their stay at the match hotel out of their own pockets (it has never been mandatory to stay at the match hotel, but I understand after X amount of rooms get paid for by the competitors, the hotel usually comps the rooms for the RO’s and staff).
Somehow I get this feeling that HQ will not be getting anywhere close to 420 shooters competing at any Nat’s level event this year.
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I've never participated in a match but for years I read the results that were posted in American Rifleman. From everything I saw back then they used a lot of pepper poppers, had lines of them to shoot. I just looked them up and the first place I saw them for sale they were $385.00. So, if you had 5 or 6 in a row, that would be $1,925 or $2,310 just for that stage. A club would have to spend serious money to buy all their targets without some kind of group discount.
As for the current situation at USPSA, as with Mr. LaPierre at NRA, as it is with many other groups, s**t floats to the top.
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I've neverparticipated in a match but for years I read the results that were posted in American Rifleman. From everything I saw back then they used a lot of pepper poppers, had lines of them to shoot. I just looked them up and the first place I saw them for sale they were $385.00. So, if you had 5 or 6 in a row, that would be $1,925 or $2,310 just for that stage. A club would have to spend serious money to buy all their targets without some kind of group discount.
As for the current situation at USPSA, as with Mr. LaPierre at NRA, as it is with many other groups, s**t floats to the top.
There are a few USPSA classifier stages that have pepper poppers and mini-poppers in / on them.
I just did a quick bing image search:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=uspsa+classifier+stage+diagrams&form=HDRSC3&first=1
Of course, HQ dictated that you had to have at least one classifier stage per each (monthly) match. The HQ said that only once per year could a local club have an all classifier stage match.
At the local, club level having extra steel targets and movers allowed us stage designers and match directors to be more creative with stage designs. In turn, that makes the stages more fun and challenging for the competitors.
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True.
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The general debasement of society creeps into once proud and august activities.
Victor Davis Hanson Diagnoses The Dying Citizen
https://www.hoover.org/research/victor-davis-hanson-diagnoses-dying-citizen-1 (https://www.hoover.org/research/victor-davis-hanson-diagnoses-dying-citizen-1)
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The general debasement of society creeps into once proud and august activities.
Victor Davis Hanson Diagnoses The Dying Citizen
https://www.hoover.org/research/victor-davis-hanson-diagnoses-dying-citizen-1 (https://www.hoover.org/research/victor-davis-hanson-diagnoses-dying-citizen-1)
It is sad.
Some point around 2010 is when I saw the culture or sociology at USPSA matches change.
Part of it was everybody started wearing techwear jersey’s like they were actually a sponsored shooter.
The other part of it was the explosion of all the various social media venues.
Within the past month or two somebody on AR15.com started a thread with a poll basically asking “Why don’t you shoot matches?”
I think it was about a third of the respondents said that the people at the matches rubbed them the wrong way / annoyed them.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Why-don-t-you-shoot-matches-Poll-option-for-those-who-do-to-see-the-reasons-/5-2702476/?page=1
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First I don’t want to drop the bucks, ~$75, for a TecWear shirt, and secondly I feel so pretentious wearing it. I do occasionally get the plain cotton match shirt just to show I went. I think I have a Sheepdog and the World IDPA but that’s about it. Otherwise I wear a S&W logo or my own Club 13 Steel challenge design shirt. Or I go Gary Player in all black.
Because of the controversy my local club held a PCSL style match with the K targets. It was a first for almost everybody so no attitudes. It was a fun match. If USPSA thinks their format is “freestyle” they ain’t seen nothing.
Sadly for USPSA, there are too many other formats and like so many other shooters I’ll just go do something else. Don’t have time for the drama.
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The general debasement of society creeps into once proud and august activities.
Victor Davis Hanson Diagnoses The Dying Citizen
https://www.hoover.org/research/victor-davis-hanson-diagnoses-dying-citizen-1 (https://www.hoover.org/research/victor-davis-hanson-diagnoses-dying-citizen-1)
I don't know who you are Catalina...but no doubt we like the way you think. What's your favorite shooting activity?
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Tyler, do you have an update on this? Maybe Alf???
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I don't have but a tidbit or two of 3rd (maybe even 4th hand) knowledge, which is sketchy and I will not pass on. Though some of it does seem to jive with what I seen and heard, But I'm not that involved with the "operations" of USPSA either at their HQ or at the local level. I just go shoot and try to conform with the rules de jure.
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I sorry to say that this constant conflict in all that much of what is important and much of what is supposed to be recreation has me emotionally exhausted. I have shared some of my sorrow on here concerning the changes in some of these sports, and I will reserve rehashing, because it is firsthand, and I tend to name names of those I saw leading to this. Stuff like this is why we can't have nice stuff.
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It only take s a few (or one) to ruin things for many.