Student shoots self in leg at "Aim Fast, Hit Fast" training.....

[Rob Pincus]

I agree with those who get the fact that semantic arguments about terminology are beneath the intelligence level of those who take safety issues seriously.

Similarly, pedantic foot stomping about "the four rules", "the three rules" and/or "the golden rule" does nothing to address the root causes of specific incidents. It is the effective equivalent of saying "if the person hadn't been handling a firearm it wouldn't have happened!". We will not re-hash that discussion in this thread. I suggest Google Search and a box of popcorn if you are interested in learning more about my opinions on the topic and starting a separate thread outside of the D&T area if you are interested in opining.

Both approaches lead to complacency about important issues and false comfort... those are dangerous, as has been pointed out.

****

Meanwhile,

I'm curious as to why the practical trauma kit doesn't include or link to a quick clot gauze pack. As easy to use as a pressure bandage and easily removed after clotting.

There area few reasons... one is the misunderstandings about the product itself another is access/expense. Personally, I think the latter is not much of an objection.

The first issue is stickier. First, the ORIGINAL quikclot product that was adopted by the military had a lot of issues, including the granular nature of the product and the exothermic reaction. Combine those two points with untrained use and you could have disastrous results that make situations worse... hence the bad rep that the product has and the mis-information that is often spread about it. The good news is that the exact product you mentioned ("combat gauze" is the proper brand name, IIRC) does NOT have loose grains that can go places you don't want them and it DOES NOT have any heat issues. It can be used in a variety of applications, not limited (to the best of my knowledge) to extremities. Going beyond that specific product, there are other brands, chemicals and delivery systems designed to help the clotting process. All of the current generation of hemostatic agents have valid applications, but they require a higher level of awareness and training than simple compression dressings.
By the way, I was laboring under a misunderstanding about some of these products, and Quikclot in particular, until very recently. As of about two weeks ago, I have a pack of Combat Gauze in my carry-on/camera/laptop/goes-just-about-everywhere-with-me bag.

For More info: http://www.z-medica.com/newsroom/zmedica_press_releases_details.asp?pressID=79

-RJP

[1911 Junkie]

I have a pack of Combat Gauze in my carry-on/camera/laptop/goes-just-about-everywhere-with-me bag.

That looks cool.

Unfortunatley we don't use that in the hospital I work at or I would "liberate" some.   

We use the old fashioned gauze and pressure technique and if that doesn't work we find the bleeders and cauterize them. I have some silver nitrate sticks that work pretty good on small stuff.

[PegLeg45]

Peg leg,

Kits are not at all overrated. Especially simple kits. They give you ONE PLACE for the RIGHT THINGS. There is no reason to use old surgical tubing as a tourniquet or repurposed hygiene products to stop blood loss in 2010. We're all spending a lot of money and effort and time to have guns and ammo and get to the range... the extra $40 for simple supplies and a belt pack is worth it.

-RJP

Just for the record...(not being nit picky or anything).....just to clarify.....     

Trident said:

Kits are over rated.  The only thing a basic first aid provider may need is a pressure dressing.  Sounds impressive, doesn't it?  Get a 'feminine hygiene pad' or Maxi-Pad (same thing I believe) and an Ace Wrap.  Apply the pad, wrap the wound with the Ace Wrap and raise the injured part above the level of the heart.

Then PegLeg said:

I was told this by an EMT who was teaching a first aid/first responder class. He said they are sterile and work well.

I wasn't agreeing that kits are over rated.......I was just adding that an EMT once told me that a Maxi-Pad would work well in a 'pinch' if you didn't have anything else.

Apologies for not making myself clearer, because I keep kits in every vehicle, the house, and my shop.
A good first-aid kit is indispensable.

 

[Rob Pincus]

My bad for not double re-reading to see it more clearly......

[Fatman]

There area few reasons... one is the misunderstandings about the product itself another is access/expense. Personally, I think the latter is not much of an objection.

The first issue is stickier. First, the ORIGINAL quikclot product that was adopted by the military had a lot of issues, including the granular nature of the product and the exothermic reaction. Combine those two points with untrained use and you could have disastrous results that make situations worse... hence the bad rep that the product has and the mis-information that is often spread about it. The good news is that the exact product you mentioned ("combat gauze" is the proper brand name, IIRC) does NOT have loose grains that can go places you don't want them and it DOES NOT have any heat issues. It can be used in a variety of applications, not limited (to the best of my knowledge) to extremities. Going beyond that specific product, there are other brands, chemicals and delivery systems designed to help the clotting process. All of the current generation of hemostatic agents have valid applications, but they require a higher level of awareness and training than simple compression dressings.
By the way, I was laboring under a misunderstanding about some of these products, and Quikclot in particular, until very recently. As of about two weeks ago, I have a pack of Combat Gauze in my carry-on/camera/laptop/goes-just-about-everywhere-with-me bag.

For More info: http://www.z-medica.com/newsroom/zmedica_press_releases_details.asp?pressID=79

-RJP

I agree, the original product has issues.  The nextgen products are much better.  I knew about the gauze (thanks for the exact name and link). There are other brands - celox http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_gauze.htm - bottom of this page has links to their other products.

There is a Quikclot "sport" product which is a clotting agent fully enclosed so it stays where it should be - term they use is a sponge. http://www.quikclot.com/finditem/24  . Comes in two sizes, 3.5x3.5, 5x5. I think I'd get at least two of these to cover both the entry and the exit wounds.

[Sponsor]

[Tyler Durden]

We had a guy shoot himself in the leg at an IDPA match a few years back.  It was at a range out in the sticks where you can't get a cell phone signal out. 

I wasn't there, and I did NOT see it happen, but...boy...oh ...boy...we sure did hear about it.

Anywhoo...my point is that I keep reminding myself that whenever I go to that range, I should really have directions printed out on how to get to the nearest ER.

I am ASSuming that the ambulance guys would or could get lost getting to the range and that it would just take too long for them to finally find the range.

[JSC3ATLCSO]

I am ASSuming that the ambulance guys would or could get lost getting to the range and that it would just take too long for them to finally find the range.

Depends on how much the ambulance crew shoots?  I know that the ambulance service that I'm on is one of the heaviest armed rigs in southeast Iowa.    Meaning about half of the crew has CCW permits and the Director is one of them.  We frequent our backwoods range quite often!  For pleasure not for business.

[2HOW]

Everyone should take the CPR, First Aid and Automatic external Defibrillator (AED). The class only costs a few bucks and keeps you up to date on new procedures and in some cases liability. If you haven't had a class lately you will be surprised on what has changed. The class covers adult thru toddlers. FWIW an IBD (Israeli battle dressing) can be invaluable.

I guess the gun class lived up to its name 

[Tyler Durden]

@ JSC3ATLCSO

This is a private members only range with very deep pockets and expensive membership dues.  They have the fancy magnetic key card gate and bunches of security cameras.

Since they are still a NON-profit, I got to look at their IRS Form 990 via www.guidestar.com .     The club president there gets paid $50K a year.  I wouldn't mind that for maintaining the range and mowing the grass.   

Anywhooo...no to poo-poo you or other ambulance crews/EMTS, but around here, I know how little the medics get paid, so I doubt they could actually afford the range dues.

So them NOT knowing where the range is at should something really bad happen is practically guaranteed.

All the better to have directions to the hospital printed out and inside the first aid kit.

[tombogan03884]

I REALLY need to take issue with one thing Rob posted,

"I agree with those who get the fact that semantic arguments about terminology are beneath the intelligence level of those who take safety issues seriously.

Similarly, pedantic foot stomping about "the four rules", "the three rules" and/or "the golden rule" does nothing to address the root causes of specific incidents."

That's crap. Words have meanings (to quote Rush ) For example, "Stupid" means you know better but did something dumb anyway, such as holstering a loaded gun with your finger still on the trigger.
"Ignorant" means you DIDN'T know any better and it bit you on the butt. But ignorant people use them interchangably.
That comment ignores the need to properly place responsibility for the event, and gun owners are SUPPOSED to be all about personal responsibility . If an individual is going to try to pass HIS F- up on the gun, by claiming "accident" when in fact HE SCREWED UP do you want to trust him with unsupervised possession of a loaded gun ?