Gun Retention

[PegLeg45]

I started to post this in the Cafe' section, but instead think it may be a pertinent topic here (if not, I will not be offended if it is moved).

My son's good friend's step-dad is a state LEO here in south Ga. This information was relayed by the officer's wife. I don't have some of the intricate details due to the ongoing investigation, but hope to know more later. In any event, what is pertinent to this thread I can divulge.

Last evening, the LEO was involved in a high speed chase that ended up with the suspect's auto stopped and the lone LEO trying to apprehend the suspect without back-up (which is the case many times with certain state agencies). The suspect was around 6'4" tall and weighing around 300 pounds and the LEO is of average height and build. He also appeared to be hopped-up on some unknown substance. The suspect attacked the LEO and tried to disarm him. The fight became extremely close and highly involved as the suspect continued to try to relieve the officer of his duty weapon. The LEO repeatedly struck the aggressor on the head with his fist and palm to the point that the bones of his striking hand actually shattered and came through his skin. The suspect finally gave up the fight and fled into the nearby woods leaving the LEO to make his way to his patrol car. **Edited from earlier: The suspect has not been apprehended.

I don't know what type of holsters this agency uses, but I do know they are issued retention type holsters and it appears to have worked. Even without greater details, I think this shows the importance of both retention holsters (for LEO's and civilians alike) and a sincere need for retention training. Being in control of your weapon is a critical and should not be overlooked.

I also think it shows how quickly an attacker can get up close and personal and the need for hand-to-hand tactics training.

[ericire12]

Mainly only in open carry situations.

[ratcatcher55]

It also shows why police officers should not try and cuff hopped up 300 lbs felons by themselves.

[bulldog75]

Sometimes you are all there is. When back up is 45 minutes away you fight or die. You can not let a deadly felon escape to hurt someone else, because if you do you are liable to be sued.

[ratcatcher55]

Shoot him.

Wrestling around with somebody who may out weigh you by 100-150 pounds is a poor choice for officer survival.

I understand your point and I'm not second quessing the officer on the decision he made at the time.

[Sponsor]

[PegLeg45]

Mainly only in open carry situations.

For the most part, yes, but there could be exceptions.
You don't always know what is in someones mind or their intentions. Just because you are carrying concealed doesn't negate caution regarding retention. I know of a guy that was attacked from behind while approaching an ATM. The attacker grabbed him around the neck from behind and reached for his wallet. If he had been carrying strong-side concealed it may just have easily meant the loss of a weapon with who knows what consequences. Situational awareness of his surroundings could have possibly prevented the attack, but an attack can come from any angle at any time. It is easier than you think to get caught off guard, even when paying attention.

[PegLeg45]

Shoot him.

Wrestling around with somebody who may out weigh you by 100-150 pounds is a poor choice for officer survival.

I understand your point and I'm not second quessing the officer on the decision he made at the time.

I agree 100% on your point.....If the opportunity was available before the actual physical struggle was under way.
I hope to get more details on the method of attack if I can.

**Edit: Just talked via email to his wife. She said the suspect exited the vehicle and ran. The officer was chasing him and the suspect turned on him and the fight ensued.

[Trident Firearms]

Shoot him.

Wrestling around with somebody who may out weigh you by 100-150 pounds is a poor choice for officer survival.

I understand your point and I'm not second quessing the officer on the decision he made at the time.

Well... I'm not sure that is the best option.  If you are wrestling around with a guy that out weighs you AND he is going for your secured sidearm, I'm not sure your best option is taking the handgun out of its secured position.  Of course not getting into that situation is the best option but once you are there do the best you can.  That includes not making the situation worse.  I think, from what little info is available the officer did the correct thing.

[ratcatcher55]

Well... I'm not sure that is the best option.  If you are wrestling around with a guy that out weighs you AND he is going for your secured sidearm, I'm not sure your best option is taking the handgun out of its secured position.  Of course not getting into that situation is the best option but once you are there do the best you can.  That includes not making the situation worse.  I think, from what little info is available the officer did the correct thing.

My point is deadly force should be considered when some dangerous felon is attempting to disarm you.

This officer stayed in the fight and more power to him.

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks for the reminder, Peg... definitely an important topic. AS noted above, it is 95% an open carry issue. Of course, if you let people know you have a gun, you have put yourself in an "open carry" situation for practical purposes. Recently, I discussed this on Armed American Radio as a potentially huge issue in defensive training with the currently popularity of Open Carry and the possibility after the Supreme Court rules on MacDonald and we see certain jurisdictions encouraging more open carry.
I also mentioned it on a recent episode of SWAT TV, where I pointed out that a retention holster like the SERPA, which allows a level of extra "retention" automatically after re-holstering can be an advantage for the CCW holder that needs to show his gun and then re-holster. At this point, retention can be much more of an issue than just before the gun was ever drawn/displayed/shot.

I'll also offer that, especially for LE, I have always said that weapon retention is a TRAINING issue, not a gear issue. No holster is going to protect your gun if you have zero awareness and no physical ability to defend yourself in close quarters.

-Rob