Iraqi Pullout: A Good Idea or a Fiasco?

[fightingquaker13]

The administration announced that we would begin a total pullout of all US forces from Iraq except for a few protecting US diplomats and the like. The administration had hoped to keep a few thousand as trainers and to provide for regional security. The deal breaker was over the issue of whether US troops would be subject to Iraqi law over alleged crimes, or whether they would be tried by the UCMJ. The Iraqis insisted on Iraqi law. The administration refused to concede. So we are leaving. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? On the one hand we established a democratically elected government and they have told us to leave. If we are serious about democracy and not being an occupying power we will go. Likewise, we are spared a whole lot of blood and treasure defending folks whose elected leaders want us gone. On the other hand, once we leave, who is to say that the Shia majority won't make Iraq a puppet state of Iran? Who is to say Al Queda won't return?

The question is this. Do we simply walk away gracefully and say FU, don't come crying to us when the idiots take charge, or do we become an occupying power without even the fig leaf of governmental approval? The main argument here being that 4,400 plus US troops died there, do we just walk away when we are asked to?

Me, I say we take this as a gift and say "So long and thanks for the fish". YMMV. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

Until we get an actual American govt , that will support troops they send into combat, and fight to win instead of striving for stalemate, the fewer US troops being sent into no win situation the better.
After 10 years of training the Iraqi's should be pulling their own weight by now, the fact they are not simply shows they do not deserve our help which they are not paying for.
The fact is that we could stay there 100 years and within one year of our leaving they will descend into a 3 way civil war.
Let a few of the politicians get blown up by Iranian trained, equipped, and financed terrorists and they will be kissing our ass to come back,
Besides, we need to get out of "Bush's 2 wars" so we can devote more assets to the 2 Obama started.

[Timothy]

Though I supported the invasion, once we found no WMDs' I've been saying we should get the f*#k out.  Nothing since has changed my opinion.  Get out, get out fast and get out completely.  I could care less about that sh*thole!

In a about two weeks we may just be getting shot at with our own armament but that's pretty much a given.

[tombogan03884]

Our declared purposes were the removal of Saddam Hussein and Forcing Iraq to comply with the UN rulings concerning his WMD.
That was done years ago, nation building was never a stated objective so screw it.
We usually don't do very well at turning 3rd worlders into civilized humans any way.
While it is now an historical foot note it is important to keep in mind that even though SH had divested himself of the WMD program, 2 of the UN resolutions he failed to comply with required notification and free inspection, his failure on those 2 counts legally justified the invasion regardless.

[Timothy]

Our declared purposes were the removal of Saddam Hussein and Forcing Iraq to comply with the UN rulings concerning his WMD.
That was done years ago, nation building was never a stated objective so screw it.
We usually don't do very well at turning 3rd worlders into civilized humans any way.
While it is now an historical foot note it is important to keep in mind that even though SH had divested himself of the WMD program, 2 of the UN resolutions he failed to comply with required notification and free inspection, his failure on those 2 counts legally justified the invasion regardless.

We are in total agreement!

[Sponsor]

[mauler]

Our declared purposes were the removal of Saddam Hussein and Forcing Iraq to comply with the UN rulings concerning his WMD.
That was done years ago, nation building was never a stated objective so screw it.
We usually don't do very well at turning 3rd worlders into civilized humans any way.
While it is now an historical foot note it is important to keep in mind that even though SH had divested himself of the WMD program, 2 of the UN resolutions he failed to comply with required notification and free inspection, his failure on those 2 counts legally justified the invasion regardless.

What a joke.  But not surprising.  You really are going to say that the invasion of Iraq was "justified"?  Was it justified under the Constitution?

[mauler]

Third choice for an answer:

Yes, we should immediately pull out our troops because the Iraq "war" was illegal, immoral and unconstitutional from the outset.  It is an admitted fact the Bush administration lied about the WMDs (and even if their lies had been true, it is still not a justification for war, especially considering that whatever WMDs Hussein ever had he got from the US).  You cannot on the one hand call for violating the Constitution to enforce UN mandates and on the other hand jump up and down and cheer for upholding the second amendment, or any other part of the Constitution.  To do so reveals you as someone who has been compromised by Orwellian newspeak (you know like Tom). 

[tombogan03884]

What a joke.  But not surprising.  You really are going to say that the invasion of Iraq was "justified"? Was it justified under the Constitution?

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Introduced in Congress on October 2, 2002, in conjunction with the Administration's proposals,[2][7] H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives on Thursday afternoon at 3:05 p.m. EDT on October 10, 2002, by a vote of 296-133,[8] and passed the Senate after midnight early Friday morning, at 12:50 a.m. EDT on October 11, 2002, by a vote of 77-23.[9] It was signed into law as Pub. L. No. 107-243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002.

Yes, as a matter of fact, it was perfectly legal under the Constitution

[mauler]

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Introduced in Congress on October 2, 2002, in conjunction with the Administration's proposals,[2][7] H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives on Thursday afternoon at 3:05 p.m. EDT on October 10, 2002, by a vote of 296-133,[8] and passed the Senate after midnight early Friday morning, at 12:50 a.m. EDT on October 11, 2002, by a vote of 77-23.[9] It was signed into law as Pub. L. No. 107-243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002.

Yes, as a matter of fact, it was perfectly legal under the Constitution

Really?  Congress declared war on Iraq?  Ha ha.  You should be banned from ever speaking of the Constitution on this site ever again.  It is scary to think that some people give credence to the stuff you post.

[tombogan03884]

You should read the Constitution some time.
Try the link I posted, it's simple enough for any one.
That way you won't sound like such a totally clueless parrot.
Your posts today have been ignorant enough for a college graduate.