Training vs gaming

[tombogan03884]

Since there has recently been some renewed discussion about this subject I decided to put some thoughts down .
There are of course many types of "gun games", Skeet, trap, and sporting clays are sufficiently stylized, and regimented that few mistake them for more than shooting practice.
The same can be said for Bullseye shooting , although some rifle shooters think they are the next Carlos Hathcock.
However when we start discussing "action shooting" confusion starts to set in.
Whether Cowboy action, modern 3 gun, IDPA, IPSC, or "Zoot Shooters" the participants fall into 2 categories,
"Athletes" and deluded Mall ninjas.
So, your 60, fat, and only go an occasional Saturday for the fun of it ?
You are just as much an athlete as the guy who plays softball once in a while.
The "deluded Mall Ninja"  thinks he's training. For what only he knows.
Yes, training and games both require shooting skill although the standards are not as high in gaming, as long as it clips the target   is good enough, the potential  effectiveness of the hit is never considered. The focus is on speed.
In real life situations the focus is reversed.
In real life, the effectiveness of hits is more important and if you take an hour but survive you have won .
As an analogy, 2 carpenters, one a framer, the other a cabinet maker, they may both use hammers and saws, but that does not mean the one can do the others job.
If you want to have fun,and meet like minded people shoot gun games.
If you want to get training in gun related martial arts go to a reputable training course.
The potential for "danger" comes from confusing the 2.

[Timothy]

As long as you're using the proper caliber of .45 or larger, training is not important!  [sarcasm]

We all know that...when I'm carrying my 1911, I'm indestructible!  When I have the .38 on me I'm continually looking for middle aged balding men with goatees and asking them questions...

 

[1911 Junkie]

Yes, training and games both require shooting skill although the standards are not as high in gaming, as long as it clips the target   is good enough, the potential  effectiveness of the hit is never considered. The focus is on speed.

That's not necessarily true. Usually the focus is on both speed and accuracy. "Clipping" the target will not get the job done. The fastest shooter will never win if his hits are not there.

[PegLeg45]

I'll not argue against the validity of quality trigger time. Any time you can shoot, and focus on the fundamentals and getting that right, is a good thing. Shooting in the various competitions from 3-Gun, to USPSA, etc is great groundwork for the handling and shooting of a weapon....but they shouldn't be relied on for 100% of any kind of SD training.

The fact of the matter when it comes to SD training (and I've stated this many times in my unsolicited opinion) is that NOTHING CAN EVER PREPARE YOU FOR 100% OF ANYTHING. You simply can't know what MIGHT happen next. You can cover many 'what-ifs'....and practical shooting sports can cover a good bit of that, but it just can't do it all.

It can't realistically cover the situation of, say, walking out of a convenience store bathroom and coming face-to-face with a .357 magnum with the hammer cocked and a tweaked out meth-head on the trigger.

Or how about having a knife stuck in your back while pumping gas?

Or, a cop being shot with his own gun by a perp in handcuffs, while struggling to put him in the car..... because the department mandated using a revolver and limited retention holster?

All three example happened to people I know personally.

You want to make IPSC, USPSA, IDPA more 'realistic'? Have the RO walk up behind a shooter about two seconds before the buzzer goes off and knock the sh!t out of him with a club...... or put a knife to his throat......... No?

Like I have said, I'm not knocking any of the competitions.......just saying to use common sense.

[tombogan03884]

I'll not argue against the validity of quality trigger time. Any time you can shoot, and focus on the fundamentals and getting that right, is a good thing. Shooting in the various competitions from 3-Gun, to USPSA, etc is great groundwork for the handling and shooting of a weapon....but they shouldn't be relied on for 100% of any kind of SD training.

The fact of the matter when it comes to SD training (and I've stated this many times in my unsolicited opinion) is that NOTHING CAN EVER PREPARE YOU FOR 100% OF ANYTHING. You simply can't know what MIGHT happen next. You can cover many 'what-ifs'....and practical shooting sports can cover a good bit of that, but it just can't do it all.

It can't realistically cover the situation of, say, walking out of a convenience store bathroom and coming face-to-face with a .357 magnum with the hammer cocked and a tweaked out meth-head on the trigger.

Or how about having a knife stuck in your back while pumping gas?

Or, a cop being shot with his own gun by a perp in handcuffs, while struggling to put him in the car..... because the department mandated using a revolver and limited retention holster?

All three example happened to people I know personally.

You want to make IPSC, USPSA, IDPA more 'realistic'? Have the RO walk up behind a shooter about two seconds before the buzzer goes off and knock the sh!t out of him with a club...... or put a knife to his throat......... No?

Like I have said, I'm not knocking any of the competitions.......just saying to use common sense.

I'm not knocking the games either, I'm just saying that people need a realistic perspective, games are for fun and sport.

Just because Lizzie Borden knew how to use an axe doesn't mean she was a capable logger.

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

Apparently my post on the other thread fell on stubborn keyboards.

Rather than let it settle down we now have a whole new thread on a topic that causes nothing but bloodshed around here.

Where is Coop with his pointy stick?  That is the perfect cover for this book!

[Timothy]

Just because Lizzie Borden knew how to use an axe doesn't mean she was a capable logger.

Lizzie Borden was acquitted of all charges!

 

[tombogan03884]

Lizzie Borden was acquitted of all charges!

 

So wasn't OJ.
You're point is ?    

Actually, there was a show about it a while back, "Histories Mysteries" I think.
They used "luminol" around the wash tub and half the room glowed.

Apparently my post on the other thread fell on stubborn keyboards.

Rather than let it settle down we now have a whole new thread on a topic that causes nothing but bloodshed around here.

Where is Coop with his pointy stick?  That is the perfect cover for this book!

m58, no one forced you to read this thread and the clarity of the title means you can't say you didn't know what it would be about.
If you are suggesting limiting the free exchange of ideas because some one might get offended then you are part of the problem.
I would suggest you rethink your stance on the subject.
The point of my thinking is that the subject belongs in the "Cafe" or handgun, forums not "defense and tactics" because games are not training, and gaming strategies are not viable defensive tactics.

[PegLeg45]

Apparently my post on the other thread fell on stubborn keyboards.

Rather than let it settle down we now have a whole new thread on a topic that causes nothing but bloodshed around here.

Where is Coop with his pointy stick?  That is the perfect cover for this book!

You just get the boxes lined up.





 




 

[Steven Cline]

Since there has recently been some renewed discussion about this subject I decided to put some thoughts down .
There are of course many types of "gun games", Skeet, trap, and sporting clays are sufficiently stylized, and regimented that few mistake them for more than shooting practice.
The same can be said for Bullseye shooting , although some rifle shooters think they are the next Carlos Hathcock.
However when we start discussing "action shooting" confusion starts to set in.
Whether Cowboy action, modern 3 gun, IDPA, IPSC, or "Zoot Shooters" the participants fall into 2 categories,
"Athletes" and deluded Mall ninjas.
So, your 60, fat, and only go an occasional Saturday for the fun of it ?
You are just as much an athlete as the guy who plays softball once in a while.
The "deluded Mall Ninja"  thinks he's training. For what only he knows.
Yes, training and games both require shooting skill although the standards are not as high in gaming, as long as it clips the target   is good enough, the potential  effectiveness of the hit is never considered. The focus is on speed.
In real life situations the focus is reversed.
In real life, the effectiveness of hits is more important and if you take an hour but survive you have won .
As an analogy, 2 carpenters, one a framer, the other a cabinet maker, they may both use hammers and saws, but that does not mean the one can do the others job.
If you want to have fun,and meet like minded people shoot gun games.
If you want to get training in gun related martial arts go to a reputable training course.
The potential for "danger" comes from confusing the 2.

As I noted in the "renewed interest" thread.  You pontificate about something you really don't understand.

You argument is here is the worst of academic pretense.  The use of analogy is the weakest of debate technique.  When one does not have a valid argument, declare that A is like a potato and B is like a lawn-mower.  Therefore A and B can't related.

Having been thoroughly dismantled in the other thread, you've created this thread wherein you can frame the argument in your interest.

I encourage readers to visit the posts there to immediate see how you are wrong.  I will cut and paste my best observations here later.

I will observe immediately though that your two declarations that the standards are higher in training than in gaming and that the emphasis on speed are incorrect (see previous mention of speaking about that which you are actually ill equipped to opine).

In gaming (the gaming you with little subtlety allude) the goal is accuracy at speed.  The match winners are shooting very high percentage of shots in the A zone as fast as they can.  They intentionally seek the balance of 95% of possible points as fast as they can.  Misses on steel targets are to be avoided since they waste time and gain no points.  Shots that "clip the target" are likewise steadfastly avoided since they earn either significantly less points or cost the shooter significant time.  They also represent shots that might cost the shooter even more- shots into hard cover on another target or a no-shoot.

The standard in gaming is the highest order of pure gun handling skills.  In Military and LE circles this is not the standard.  It is a minimum standard that all must attain to be entrusted with a weapon in the public or on the battlefield.  They recognize a maximum standard.  But that is one not all that difficult to achieve.  Many soldiers walk about with the Expert Rifleman's badge (I did it each time I shot a qual) and three of us graduated with Top Gun designations from the State academy.  Gaming pushes the bar higher and the top dog gamers are often sought out to train elite units on how to shoot better.  To challenge our incorrect beliefs as to what is minimum acceptable and what is maximum attainable. 

Robert Vogel is one of the world's best pistol shooters, and an LEO.  He didn't get to be the best as an LEO, he got those incredible skills through... gaming.  He doesn't fancy himself or other gamers as mall ninjas.  Neither does Ben Stoeger, the current USPSA National Production champion and LEO.  There are a number of others- the Chief of a nearby city PD is a USPSA GM.  He doesn't think poorly or gamers and wishes his officers would shoot more- they be better prepared to use their sidearms if pressed to do so.  It appears that you do.  Who's opinion should one accept?  Persons who are current LEOs and gamers- or someone who demonstrates no knowledge of the games; or at least a severe misunderstanding?

As to what the gamers are practicing for- well, just about anything.  See, in the games you get to experience a tremendous variety of scenarios and shoot them. 

If one would like to actually be better prepared to using a gun to save a life, then investing in ammo for practice and matches and the very small entry fee can be argued to be a much more efficient investment.