9 vs 45 vs 40 etc.

[billt]

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

This is a good read on why the FBI is going back to the 9 MM.

[Solus]

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

This is a good read on why the FBI is going back to the 9 MM.

Exactly.  Their reasons for going with the 40 S&W rather than the 45 ACP when leaving the poorly performing 9mm now apply to the much improved performance of the 9mm. 

Increased capacity and reduced recoil without a sacrifice in effectiveness make it a smart decision.

I stopped carrying a 1911 back at the time of the FBI trials and started carrying a Glock 23 in 40 S&W when they became available

Will  have to start watching for good 9mm gelatin tests.

[Big Frank]

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

This is a good read on why the FBI is going back to the 9 MM.

That article says something about the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. Those same technologies are being applied to the .40 and .45 too. All 3 calibers are becoming more effective. I'll stick with my .45s for now. I have 3 double-column Paras so I'm not sacrificing much in magazine capacity by not switching to 9mm. If I can't hit my target in 15 rounds then I probably wouldn't hit it with 18.

[Solus]

That article says something about the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. Those same technologies are being applied to the .40 and .45 too. All 3 calibers are becoming more effective. I'll stick with my .45s for now. I have 3 double-column Paras so I'm not sacrificing much in magazine capacity by not switching to 9mm. If I can't hit my target in 15 rounds then I probably wouldn't hit it with 18.

Thing with that is that the 45 in particular has little room for improvement and still remain a pistol caliber, while the 9mm can approach and surpass the 45 due to it's ability to be driven faster.

That speed, along with a bullet design that allows for the needed penetration and expansion give the 9mm and edge.

Now, add in the reduced recoil and control of the 9mm, along with increased capacity and longer life and reduced maintenance on the firearms, and you have a better choice.

Believe me...I have been a proponent of big and heavy for adequate penetration and wound size and went to a Glock 21 from my 1911 because of increased capacity and, due to the Glock design, reduced recoil giving better control.

And I switched to the 40 S&W when "science" showed that there were advantages. 

I have, until recently, poo-poo'ed the 9mm because all the +++PPPPP++++ stuff just meant trying to drive it faster without insuring adequate terminal ballistics to get the job done..

Now, the bullet design of 9mm allows that performance. 

There is one drawback..and I can't evaluate it....but I've always shied away from super-sonic defensive hand gun rounds..mainly because that speed would lead to lessened terminal performance...but noise could be an issue...and still could...but don't know if it is any kind of deal breaker.

[tombogan03884]

It's 7AM and I am posting some "laying awake at 3AM" thoughts, so bear with me.
All 3 will get the job done, that's a fore gone conclusion. But doesn't purpose enter into it some what ?
With rifles we want to teach a certain range of distances and penetrate a specific target. For example, hunters need to penetrate meat and bone to teach vitals, while military shooters need to do the same after penetrating clothing web gear, and possibly a certain level of protective gear. Cartridge sizes started out in the .45 caliber range for these purposes, and for big dangerous game, I will grant they have stayed there, (yes, Karamojo Bell hunted elephants with a 7 or 8 mm, but he also preferred an ear hole shot) as bullet and powder technology advanced how ever bullet diameter dropped to 6 mm (1898Lee -Navy ) and the current 5.56/5.45 fad but preference has stabilized in the area of .30 caliber as the best combination of velocity and bullet weight to get the job done at all ranges .
Pistols have a different purpose . Relatively short range, stop 'em NOW. Not necessarily immobilize, or kill, but STOP.  It seems that a really heavy, not so fast bullet. would be more appropriate for self defense, since as a general rule of thumb any one the law justifies shooting is going to be close enough to injure you or recieve the loot a victim is expected to hand over.
I'm thinking, start at .50 GI and work down to the largest caliber you can shoot well (and afford to feed) .
Remember before you light me up that these are late night thoughts written early in the AM 
My personal idea for a great pistol would be a Walther -P 38  double stack, .45 with the controls and grip angle the same as a 1911 , Tritium, or TFO sights, and a barrel with integral suppressor.

[Sponsor]

[billt]

It's 7AM and I am posting some "laying awake at 3AM" thoughts, so bear with me.
All 3 will get the job done, that's a fore gone conclusion. But doesn't purpose enter into it some what ?
With rifles we want to teach a certain range of distances and penetrate a specific target. For example, hunters need to penetrate meat and bone to teach vitals, while military shooters need to do the same after penetrating clothing web gear, and possibly a certain level of protective gear. Cartridge sizes started out in the .45 caliber range for these purposes, and for big dangerous game, I will grant they have stayed there, (yes, Karamojo Bell hunted elephants with a 7 or 8 mm, but he also preferred an ear hole shot) as bullet and powder technology advanced how ever bullet diameter dropped to 6 mm (1898Lee -Navy ) and the current 5.56/5.45 fad but preference has stabilized in the area of .30 caliber as the best combination of velocity and bullet weight to get the job done at all ranges .
Pistols have a different purpose . Relatively short range, stop 'em NOW. Not necessarily immobilize, or kill, but STOP.  It seems that a really heavy, not so fast bullet. would be more appropriate for self defense, since as a general rule of thumb any one the law justifies shooting is going to be close enough to injure you or recieve the loot a victim is expected to hand over.
I'm thinking, start at .50 GI and work down to the largest caliber you can shoot well (and afford to feed) .
Remember before you light me up that these are late night thoughts written early in the AM 
My personal idea for a great pistol would be a Walther -P 38  double stack, .45 with the controls and grip angle the same as a 1911 , Tritium, or TFO sights, and a barrel with integral suppressor.

Everything you said is not only true, but good, ballistic common sense. The problem is control. This is what got the FBI into such a mess when they got away from their .357 / .38 revolvers after the 1986 Miami shootout. They wanted a more powerful weapon for their agents that held more than 6 rounds. After one of the worst days in FBI history, where 2 agents were killed and several more wounded and crippled, they went to the newer 10 MM Auto, which is a fantastic cartridge. The problem they ran into almost immediately, is few agents could control it effectively enough to make reliable hits. So they went to Federal, and they designed a "10 MM Light" or "10 MM FBI" load. It kinda, sorta worked. But the guns were big and heavy for the ballistic performance they delivered with the weaker loading.

Then Smith & Wesson saw a huge opportunity, and they went to work and developed a "10 MM Short", which went on to become the .40 S&W. It sold like hotcakes because it could easily be built on smaller 9 MM framed guns. It became an instant success with law enforcement. Then, after several years of data collection of shootouts across the country, they found out it offered little if any real, tangible gain. Plus, they found out it was tearing up guns a lot faster.

In the meantime bullet development advanced light years after Winchester came out with their immensely successful "Black Talon" round, that expanded every time, all the time, in just about anything. It was renamed into what is now the successful Ranger Law Enforcement line. Other bullet and cartridge makers followed suit. And now we've got all but countless brands and types of the absolute best self defense ammunition ever created. All of which takes 9 MM performance to a level never before achieved. All while maintaining the ease of controllability the 9 MM cartridge is known for.

So it appears after 30 years, and countless guns and caliber changes, we've come full circle. Particularly in law enforcement. In a way it's a bit like the current automotive industry, where they're getting more from less. It used to be one horsepower from one cubic inch was a hot rodder's wet dream. Now you can buy it in any showroom with a full factory warranty. And it gets 20 MPG too boot. Calibers and ammunition have performed much the same. You don't need bigger calibers any more than you need bigger V-8's to achieve the same performance today.   

[tombogan03884]

Personal variations in what can be shot by a 6 foot 250 pound guy, or a 110 pound woman were not taken into my thinking. In fact, they were purposely ignored because it add things really complicated.

[billt]

Personal variations in what can be shot by a 6 foot 250 pound guy, or a 110 pound woman were not taken into my thinking. In fact, they were purposely ignored because it add things really complicated.

Understood. The problem is law enforcement, and even the FBI employs everything from 5' 4", 110 pound cop chicks, to 6' 4", 240 pound boilermaker types. It becomes an all but unsolvable problem.

[tombogan03884]

A little hard to conceal, but there's always this.


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+homemade+railgun&view=detail&mid=EDAF613DDC33A7A191D6EDAF613DDC33A7A191D6&FORM=VIRE3

[Big Frank]

The 9x19mm and .40 S&W both operate at pressures 67% higher than the .45 ACP. Everyone says the .40 is hard on guns and wears them out too fast. Does the 9mm at the same pressure cause excessive wear?