Gun Debate - US vs Europe?

[ericire12]

I'm going to jump in here ONCE and then ignore this thread.

Now there is a comment of the day award nominee.

And oh yeah, +1

[Rastus]

........................Obama and Hitler? You might want to see a doctor...

Hey, you stole that line from from Karl Rove's campaign tactics, didn't ya? ;-)

Believe me I'm not forgetting my history - maybe I learn different things from it.

Not equal.  Parallels.  The parallels are there for the movements.  Thugs at polling places.....surely not (sarcasm, by the way).

The Karl Rove "dis" tends to indicate you are less european then you indicate.  Since yo mentioned Karl Rove, what were his tactics you are referring to?

Maybe you received a different version of history.  East Block or West Block?

[brosometal]

Not boring at all. Thanks for this post.
Watch out here comes a new "rock", but it's not meant as a provocation, honestly. It's something I would like to exchange thoughts on. Even in the US you will have to agree, certain rights are controlled. Let's look at the issue of gay marriage. In many places they don't have the right to have equal rights -- to be created equal. I do have a feeling though, that not 5% of the people who fight passionately for 2nd A. would stir a finger to help to promote gay marriage. From an outside perspective, you develop a scepticism - is it really about rights and freedom or is a great deal of the original spirit perverted by "guncraziness" excuse my language, but I've seen people who I have difficulty to describe differently - obviously you are not one of them.

Without an anecdote it would be hard to comment on your specific experience and frame of reference.  To judge an entire culture by a few nuts would be poor policy, but in some cases understandable.

Controlled rights?  Good question.  Back to new world thought.  The consitution and its Bill of Rights limits the powers of Government not the individuals from which it derives its power.  That Government then makes laws.  It is a balance of powers.  You mentioned gay marriage.  This would be a red herring.  I, as a heterosexual male, have the exact same rights as a homosexual male.  I cannot marry another man.  Likewise, neither can our hypothetical homosexual male.  These rights are equal under the law.  A better example of controlled rights would be the often used example, at least here in the evil USA, of free speech (Amendment 1) and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. 

Here's another way of looking at the situation:  Rights do not require the destruction of another person or their rights.  As a Liberatarian minded person this is forefront in my mind daily with the present political situation.  I own and control me.  The government does not.  I can choose to flail my arms randomly in any direction I please.  However, the minute my flailing arms violate another person's space or cause bodily harm there has to be recourse to the harmed individual.  This is where Government enters the situation.  Government sets parameters and penalties when said parameters are violated.  Here is the good part.  This Government is made up of the very individuals it regulates.  Call it full circle or balace of powers or what ever the case may be.  I choose to call it the American Ideal.

Back to the Old World vs. the New World.  The USA is a rather young country.  One of the major factors it its metoric rise to sole superpower is the fact that the USA is the freest contry on the planet.  When we see the freedoms that allow us to be the best person we can be being eroded away, we balk.  The recent hiccups we have had are a result of too many people willing to subjegate freedom with control.

[tombogan03884]

old europe, let me give you a historic and verifiable perspective of guns from Asia and Europe, First Asia, Mao said "all political power comes from the barrel of a gun" in America the power resides with "We the People" ergo, the people have more right to arms than Government. Lenin, in his collected works, (think it's vol. 2 but not sure) writes that "the nation that allows itself to be disarmed ,deserves the slavery which will soon follow. That is the root progressive view of civilian gun ownership .
As for wanting to see a doctor for comparing Obama to Hitler, lets see, tailors message to audiance, blames "The Rich" for all the worlds problems, connection to violent radicals, use of every form of election fraud available including thugs at polling places, proposes "Civilian "National Security Force", Messianic image portrayed in media, enraptures crowds of supporters at mass rallies with his speeches, Obama has even been on the cover of Time magazine, JUST LIKE HITLER.

[oldeurope]

old europe, let me give you a historic and verifiable perspective of guns from Asia and Europe, First Asia, Mao said "all political power comes from the barrel of a gun" in America the power resides with "We the People" ergo, the people have more right to arms than Government. Lenin, in his collected works, (think it's vol. 2 but not sure) writes that "the nation that allows itself to be disarmed ,deserves the slavery which will soon follow. That is the root progressive view of civilian gun ownership .
As for wanting to see a doctor for comparing Obama to Hitler, lets see, tailors message to audiance, blames "The Rich" for all the worlds problems, connection to violent radicals, use of every form of election fraud available including thugs at polling places, proposes "Civilian "National Security Force", Messianic image portrayed in media, enraptures crowds of supporters at mass rallies with his speeches, Obama has even been on the cover of Time magazine, JUST LIKE HITLER.

This is really a bit drastic, far-fetched and/or not true - or sadly true for allmost any politician (exept Warren Beatty in that one movie, whose title I can't remember just now).
Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.

[Sponsor]

[oldeurope]

Not equal.  Parallels.  The parallels are there for the movements.  Thugs at polling places.....surely not (sarcasm, by the way).

The Karl Rove "dis" tends to indicate you are less european then you indicate.  Since yo mentioned Karl Rove, what were his tactics you are referring to?

Maybe you received a different version of history.  East Block or West Block?

Oh, come on. Not again... You are NOT Sherlock Holmes and I am NOT American -- which I wouldn't mind at all by the way. Otherwise I wouldn't have deliberately chosen to live with you for a year. If you've read my posts like Sherlock Holmes, you could tell I'm from Germany -  I dropped a hint.
The fact that I know much more about the US then you do about Europe, could lead me to say you're ignorant, but I don't. It is nothing for me to take pride in. Let's face it, the US is/has been much more important for Germany than the other way around. If I was in your place I probably wouldn't know much about Europe.

Oh, West Germany. But thanks for indicating I have been brainwashed by some socialist/communist regime ;-) I'm aware, that US history books are the only ones telling the truth and are the only ones authorized true directly by our creator ;-)

Karl Rove has perfected hammering away on a lie/or bent truth to discredit political opponents or even start a war

[oldeurope]

Without an anecdote it would be hard to comment on your specific experience and frame of reference.  To judge an entire culture by a few nuts would be poor policy, but in some cases understandable.

Controlled rights?  Good question.  ...

Here's another way of looking at the situation:  Rights do not require the destruction of another person or their rights.... 

Back to the Old World vs. the New World....

I have a bad feeling that they aren't just a few. But I wouldn't judge your culture by them anyhow - if you havn't noticed yet, I do have a lot of respect for America, it's ideals etc - With some things I have a hard time, though. And I'm interested if there could be a way/system to preserve the good parts of a population with guns, getting rid of the bad parts.

I was talking about the "right" to marry the person you love and even get the benefits / and yes also the obligations that come with that. They wouldn't harm anybody, would they? Not more than your flailing arms (anecdote: I first read it as arms as in guns - funny picture)

I'm not so sure, you are the freest country in the world. And success does not only come by freedoms. If it wasn't for the US (lets suppose for a moment they wouldnt have existed) my countries "success" could have really messed the world up badly. There are other examples: the romans, ghengis khan, alexander...
I hope though you are right with the hiccups - but I#m not so sure on that. The importance of the US has dropped dramatically for example to the advantage of china etc.
We'll see

[Ocin]

This is really a bit drastic, far-fetched and/or not true - or sadly true for allmost any politician (exept Warren Beatty in that one movie, whose title I can't remember just now).
Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.

Please check this thread, especially the video iit starts with.

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3881.0

[Teresa Heilevang]

Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.

Obama hasn't been in office yet to be able to do anything.. but hang on... it's comin'.
Every statement that is listed.. he has leaned toward in all of his speeches and voting records.
A dark and dreary morning here in Kansas for a dark and dreary election.

I do congratulate the democrats though! They have successfully voted in the most inexperienced, most liberal candidate with one of the worst histories I have ever seen without really even breaking a sweat.

His reputation and short 'do barely nothing' history as a Senator was filled with personal Liberal party agenda. There was no
"for the people"..and I doubt he and his American hating wife will be any different when they move on up to the Big House. It's like trusting a fox in the hen house. You can't.

*Taking a deep breath*  ....... Now... on to hope and change. I hope he miraculously changes his stances to make American better instead of destroy it... but most of us know how that is going to go.

[oldeurope]

Obama hasn't been in office yet to be able to do anything.. but hang on... it's comin'.
Every statement that is listed.. he has leaned toward in all of his speeches and voting records.

Just for Info:
Everything I've listed took place, BEFORE Hitler was in Office