Question about Battle Rifles

[JohnJacobH]

I invite MB, WALT RAUCH, hell even John Farnham to give this a look, I wish uncle Jeff was around to view it too.

I agree. So what happened to this topic/thread? Will it just die a slow, uncertain death?

Best regards,

[Michael Bane]

Yes indeed...the Kobayashi Maru conundrum!

For those of you who missed the last 50,000 repeats of Star Trek, here's the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru

A little background, here...as I mentioned somewhere, as a journalist, I've been fascinated by large-scale urban riots. I've been in several pretty scary ones, including the triaging of neighborhoods in Memphis after the death of Dr. King; the May Day demonstrations/riots in Washington D.C.; the Weathermen assault on the South Vietnamese embassy on Dupont Circle; some of the Overtown riots in Miami and a few assorted smaller events. I was in New York City for the '76 black-out with its rolling mini-riots. I have been clubbed, tear-gassed, arrested several times (and released on my press — get-out-of-jail-free — card), had various and sundry guns pointed at me, etc.

Several things stuck with me (in addition to the damned pepper gas):

1) Large urban riots can be seen as an almost organic entities — they can branch and spread like limbs from a tree, or they can go full viral (like the Rodney King riots in LA). They often defy prediction, as they can go viral, "jump" from area to area, for any number of reasons.
2) They are pure chaos systems in that they grow, spread and die based on the intentions and interactions of the individuals who have been drawn into the, for lack of a better word, vortex of the main riot. It was amazing to me how the group can be inflamed and led by often a single individual with an agenda or a massive hard-on. Because intention and interaction are singular events, the ferocity and speed of the riot can ebb and flow seemingly without regard to rationality.
3) What I refer to as "social dislocations" — events like a large urban riot or, say, Katrina — can be contageous on a larger scale and spread city-to-city.
4) Because of the chaotic nature of the event, it's easier to get caught in a riot than one might think — even if you're paying attention.
5) Most people don't even pay attention...as I said in the podcast, I was perpetually amazed at the number of people who just wandered into a riot zone..."well, this is how I always drive home!"

The Juneteenth situation is no different. My friend and fellow cave diver Michael Menduno was the first person to suggest, years ago when he ran a technical dive magazine, that every death in cave diving needed a full "incident report," an analysis of what went wrong, what failed, what safety rules were broken. Menduno theorized — correctly — that an analysis of deaths would yield not a plethora of individualized reasons/causes of death, but a sequence of small mistakes or missteps that led ultimately to a "non-recoverable" situation. By studying those missteps, we could synthesize Real World safety standards. If we look back at the Juneteenth situation with 20-20 hindsight, we can evolve a series of mistakes or missteps that are probably be ported over to any social dislocation situation.

1) "Don't be there!" Rule 1...when the feces hits the shredder, don't be there. This requires paying attention to your own locale and the world around you. I recommend you do what I (and virtually every other trainer I know) does...we alter our own personal "readiness" based on national social issues, disruptions, anything out of the ordinary. I laughingly refer to it as my own personal Def-Con, the old military "defense condition" standard. Or you can think about it as assigning a variation of Cooper's color coding to the macro situation. Def-Con 3 is normal; nothing out of the ordinary going on; Def-Con 2 is something worrisome happening nationally, say a Katrina in New Orleans or a Rodney King riot in LA. In 2, I am making sure I am "not there" should something blow up...I am careful of my driving routes; if I am traveling, I limit my exposure to unknown areas as much as possible. If I'm on the road in Def-Con 3, I might look for a restaurant I read about or go out to a movie; In Def-Con 2, it's whatever's on teevee at the hotel and room service or delivered pizza. In Def-Con 2, I will typically be heavier armed...I might go from my usual carry gun, a Sig Sauer 225 9mm, to a higher capacity 226 and at least two additional magazines on my person. If I am traveling by car in Def-Con 2, I will add a second, usually long, gun [IN ACCORDANCE WITH LOCAL LAWS, WHICH IS WHY I LIVE IN COLORADO, FOLKS!]. I have at various times carried a folding stock Mini-14 .223, a folding stock Remington 870 12 or 20 gauge or a collapsable stock AR-15. At various times while traveling to jurisdictions with hostile gun laws, I have CAREFULLY chosen firearms which are in compliance with the local laws. For example, I have a folding stock 20 gauge single shot that, in its locked plastic case is legal most everywhere...not my first choice, but surely better than a sharp stick.  In the highest level of readiness, Def-Con 1, my impulse is to GO TO GROUND. The morning of 9/11 is a good example...I have no idea what is going on; I don't want to be on the roads or in the air; I don't want to be away from home base.

2) "Don't Leave the Car!" Pretty simple, huh? Car is Big Powered Metal Box that easily makes IPSC Major power factor! I talked about this a lot in TRAIL SAFE, The car gives me a chance to get away. I like my car. I like calling 911 and saying there is an assault in progress! I like running like a scared bunny in big metal box! If I am surrounded and people are moving on my car, I will fall back on what one of the top defensive/evasion/escape drivers in the world (he works with the military) calls "Baghdad Rules" — accelerator down; guns deployed but down. I am in fear of for my life and the lives of my passengers — which is why I have deployed the gun — and my first responsibility is to get out of the killing zone. The first responsibility of the people outside my car is to get the hell out of my way.

3) "If You Have to Shoot, Aim for Armed People and/or Apparent Leaders Who Are Actively Assaulting You!" People with weapons are your primary threat...guns & impact weapons like bricks are more of a threat to you in a car than knives or harsh language. Someone running toward your car holding a concrete block and screaming, "Kill them! Kill them!" is a primary threat because they can kill you kill you, breach your protective metal box and possibly, depending on how the windshield shatters and where the block lands, render you unable to drive away and/or defend yourself and your passengers. You are NOT "hosing the crowd!" You are NOT "firing for effect" or firing to"keep their heads down." You are firing in response to a grave threat against your life or the life of your passengers. One of the reasons I prefer a carbine over a shotgun is that an AR or an AK is more of a close-quarters surgical instrument than a shotgun, especially with a red dot optic like the military Aimpoint (which I have on two of my ARs). In terms of potential ammo penetration, Hornady TAPS in .223 are designed for close quarters work and designed to be less penetrative; shotgun buckshot and slugs are fiercely penetrative...moreso than we tend to think. Secondly, the standard capacity magazine for the AR is 30 rounds; for a shotgun with an extended tube, eight rounds. I am hoping for intimidation; if I don't get it, I want lots of rounds. The AR is designed to be swifty reloaded; the shotgun can be awkward to reload (Don't believe me? Go to a 3-gun match and what what happens when the shooter has to reload the shotgun in a constrained space).

In this situation, the reason I would favor a long gun over a handgun is, hopefully, an intimidation effect. Crowds aren't unconditionally stupid...in Miami, some store owners sat on top of their businesses with semiauto Thompsons and ARs...those businesses were spared. A long gun is more visible to a crowd than a handgun, and is generally perceived as more "dangerous." I am in my car, remember...if the crown is intimidated, it will tend to move away from said car, giving me the opportunity to drive away in the big metal box! I want some kind of red-dot optic on the rifle (or shotgun)...they are the easiest sights in the world to shoot, and in a super-tense situation where your life is threatened, you want EVERY SINGLE ADVANTAGE you can get. The handgun is the back-up, your final fallback if the car itself is breached. That scenario is why Bill Rogers at the Rogers Shooting School (which specializes in Feds and active duty military) puts such an emphasis on weak-hand shooting...you steer with your strong hand!

4) "If You're in a Juneteenth Situation and You Have to Leave the Scene because You are in Fear for Your Life, Don't Go Home!" Do it by the numbers...call 911 the instant you can after the accident; if you even think there's an injury, request an ambulance on the scene; call 911 again if a crowd threatens and tell them you are in fear for your and your passengers' lives and to warm incoming paramedics that a dangerous situation has developed; if you are forced to leave the scene, call 911 YET AGAIN and tell them that you have left the scene out of fear for your life, but you will be waiting for the police at "X" nearby intersection. I suggest, if possible, to remain on the phone with the 911 operators until the police arrive at your location. If you have deployed your firearm/firearms, un-deploy them...handgun back in holster; additional gun back to its resting place. As soon as the police get there, call your lawyer and do exactly what your lawyer tells you.

Some situations are lose-lose, as the Kobayashi Maru scenario points out. When I used to give talks about risk management, one of my big points was that the first lesson of surviving in a chaos system, be it nature or combat, was to first understand that you were in a chaos situation and that your greatest chance of survival lay in your mental flexibility. And as the first smart monkey learned back there on the plains of Africa, it doesn't hurt to have tools, either.

I hope this clarifes my postings...any more questions, ask. I'll see if I can get a couple of other trainers to chime in...

Michael B



 

[ratcatcher55]

Micheal,

Excellent Advise.

If you need to shoot people in this situation you will need to justify every shot: I shot Junior because he had a cinder block, I shot Bubba because he was draging my wife out of the car.

I would say stay on the cell phone, do not hang up. Repeat a mantra, "Get way, Drop the weapon, I have called the police", what ever, just keep it up because it will be used by the court. You'll come off much better than, " I'm going to kill you(*& )(*!"

Jeff Gonzales wrote something to the effect that it was nice of Mercedes to put that  front sight on the car. Use it and get away. Even if you move at 10-15 mile an hour you should be able to push your vehicle through a crowd. Movement makes you a difficult target.

[WymoreWrangler]

Good points Michael...

[Dharmaeye]

In WA cannot have a loaded rifle in car- OK is seem to have a loaded magazine not inserted. Thought of my Underfolder ak-47 semi-auto with a full magazine attached/ not inserted with a rubber band. Have to find some low penetration rounds? HP I have would over penetrate. Was thinking of the Hi-Point carbine but there does not seem to be any reliable high capacity Magazines.

[Sponsor]

[Michael Bane]

Here's a note from Ed Head, the Numero Uno at GUNSITE, about the thread:

Michael,

I think you are very much on target. The problem with allowing these discussions to become endless "what if...?" scenarios is that they also,
inevitably, become unwinnable.

We get this from time to time at Gunsite with clients who want a specific answer for every possible variable or event.  There are many problems
with this, such as the laws in various jurisdictions and the fact that all of us have widely different experiences and training, all of which
will have an impact on our decision making.  My telling you what I might do, or have done, under some circumstance does not necessarily mean that
would be a good choice for you.

The bottom line is be be alert, aware, well informed and to avoid some situations as much as possible.  The best (gun) fight is the one you don't
attend.  I don't do biker bars on Saturday night, I avoid large crowds, such as in stadium sporting events, and I don't go on sailing vacations
in hurricane season.  It's just common sense, as well as coming from a properly trained and exercised mindset.

And, risking the nit-picking of others, my personal metal box is a 4X4 PU.  Besides the Colt LW Commander I carry daily there is extra
ammunition, an EMT level medical kit, three SureFire flashlights with extra batteries, an M1 carbine (sometimes an AR15 shorty), a machete, a
Glock 10mm, a fire starting kit and a selection of good music for the CD player on board, at a minimum, at all times.  Paranoid?  I think not...

Keep stirring things up, Michael.


DVC,

Ed Head

[m25operator]

Good responses Michael and Ed, Absolutely the best place to be is anywhere but there, and the best place to have your weapon when you know theres going to be trouble, is in your hand. One point I was trying to make if you were in the chaos, and had to retailiate, is to use what law enforcement is taught, be the most professional, serious person you can be, let the crowd have no doubt of your intent, and ability to carry it out. Give them an option, but get out of there as quickly as possible, no one knows if this would have helped in this situation, it was not only mob mentality, but being a celebration, the chances of alcohol and drugs would be greater for that many people at that time of day.

[texcaliber]

.  Besides the Colt LW Commander I carry daily there is extra
ammunition, an EMT level medical kit, three SureFire flashlights with extra batteries, an M1 carbine (sometimes an AR15 shorty), a machete, a
Glock 10mm, a fire starting kit and a selection of good music for the CD player on board, at a minimum, at all times.

not saying to much "outside-the-box" here, but if you want a instant riot stopper you need Naphlam or Quad 50's. That machette is the perfect "gotta" tool when the mob has pulled one of yours out and you dont want to send rounds tward them. There is very little training need to use one and they are short dough. WallieWorld has them under $10. As for the other armed lowlifes, when you lop-off one of thier arms it makes the others think twice and very hard to accomplish the onearmed,

running toward your car holding a concrete block and screaming, "Kill them! Kill them!" is a primary threat because they can kill you kill you, breach your protective metal box and possibly, depending on how the windshield shatters and where the block lands, render you unable to drive away and/or defend yourself and your passengers.

Just an opinion. Michael B should get Michael Janich or other expert to advise machette use in very "close quarter" defense against large numbers of threats. Remember the number one thing that is disturbing about Juneteenth was the pulling of passanger from seat. Very few people I would let ride shotgun with me that I would just write-off and driveaway from. VERY FEW !

[JohnJacobH]

Here's a note from Ed Head, the Numero Uno at GUNSITE, about the thread:



The bottom line is be be alert, aware, well informed and to avoid some situations as much as possible.  The best (gun) fight is the one you don't
attend.  I don't do biker bars on Saturday night, I avoid large crowds, such as in stadium sporting events, and I don't go on sailing vacations
in hurricane season.  It's just common sense, as well as coming from a properly trained and exercised mindset.

And, risking the nit-picking of others, my personal metal box is a 4X4 PU.  Besides the Colt LW Commander I carry daily there is extra
ammunition, an EMT level medical kit, three SureFire flashlights with extra batteries, an M1 carbine (sometimes an AR15 shorty), a machete, a
Glock 10mm, a fire starting kit and a selection of good music for the CD player on board, at a minimum, at all times.  Paranoid?  I think not...

Keep stirring things up, Michael.


DVC,

Ed Head

Mr. Bane,

This is a real good answer from Mr. Head. Of course, he left out the 100' of rope and another 100'feet of parachute cord, a couple of those sealed sardine can
survival kits, water bottles, pocket carry emergency blankets and a vest to pack it all in to carry across country without looking like you are a lost hiker with a knapsack on your back. But other than that he is a man after my own heart.

I am also glad to learn from the previous post that you think it is a good idea to drive away from a homicidal mob.

I have not had the good fortune to attend every major riot in the last half century ( so what agency of the National Intelligence Community do you work for  exactly?) but I have lived in cities where the thin veneer of civilization was stretched to the snapping point and I was not amused.

The worst thing about those experiences was the first thing to fail were things like the cellular phone net. It became impossible to contact your loved ones,
connect with the authorities and just generally get solid information about what exactly is afoot.

Something as simple as a bank robbery with helicoptors overhead, police redirecting traffic in all directions and the only answer you get from the newsroom is:
we have been told not to talk about it until tonight's broadcast.  WHAT?

So there is nothing on radio or TV and the only chatter from the local newsbreak crowd is" mum's the word".   Maybe if I got one of those secret Masonic Decoder
rings they would open up to me.

In any case if Apocalyse comes in my lifetime I will probably have a rifle with me, even if it is not an AK Underfolder.  I still can not see using it on a mob of drunk and crazy Juneteenth nitwits.  If  Rodney King comes to live in my city, that is another story.

Best regards,