Crimson Trace and CCW

[TxIronWolf]

Thank you all this has given me some good insight. I do agree whole heartedly Robin that that much spent on ammo would be Very Helpful, but I feel from what I have read here and other places that this product would provide just as much help as that much range time. I will problly find some where that I can get my hand s on a set and really look them over. Do the whole touch., see, smell thing with them. Once more Thanks to All of you.

[tombogan03884]

Do any of the ranges in your area rent guns with them ? the one I go to has a couple but since I have not been in the market, I haven't bothered.

[jason10mm]

Thats true it does give you another option, but it is very hard to look at the sites when you are fixed on the dot.( trust me.)

Yeah, but if there is a dot there to focus on, then the laser must be working, right?

I find that using the laser instead of the sights actually slows me down, as I try to wrangle that jumping dot instead of just trusting the sights. And on a 3 dimensional target and inside a place with reflective surfaces, that dot can end up in odd places, different from where you are actually aiming. They worked WONDERFULLY on a S&W 642 snubby (which has minimal sights) though.

Another thing to bear in mind is that most lasers have a significant amount of hold over/under/lateral deviation as they are often displaced from the line of the barrel. Those laser/light combos are the worst as the laser is on the bottom of the light, so it can be a few inches below the level of the barrel. CTs are a bit better, though if you tune them to get POI/POA at a certain range, you will hit to the left or right at other ranges. Probably not a big deal at most defensive ranges and when aiming COM, but important to keep in mind when practicing and that laser dot doesn't seem to agree with your sight picture and where the bullets actually land (if you are trying for bullseye shooting accuracy)

Another thing to bear in mind is that unlike the movies, a bad guy may not necessarily know that a laser is illuminating him (hollywood folks always seem to know when to look down to their chest) and that a dot on a wall gives very little info about there the source is unless there is a lot of smoke/dust in the air to highlight the beam. Having the laser on all the time isn't the death sentence some think it is.

Finally, I have a real hard time training with a laser at a range in daylight. The dot is weak and hard to see. But I feel that if you have a laser then you MUST train with it to get proficient, so plan on some dawn/dusk or overcast training days if you don't have access to an indoor/night shooting facility.

I wish some of the major competitions would create a laser class. Nothing would tweak the designs and popularize the device more than competition, IMHO. I don't know how you could do it technically, but a laser "ring" projecting from around the muzzle, activated by trigger pressure, would be pretty cool and would solve some of the issues I have with lasers.

[Rob Pincus]

Jason,

Some of your points are really good ones. I've almost always seen the laser slow people down, not speed them up. it also can cause a significant change in shooting position that is inconsistent with intuitive and sighted fire when people purposely get used to holding the firearm below their line of sight to make seeing the dot easier.

Have you seen the new rear sight laser that I wrote about in the TBD Blog?  It may solve some of the deviation issues.

-RJP

[John McCreery]

I think there is some hesitation for people to fire a shot if they do not see the dot.  If the batteries died, laser fails, you manage to block it somehow.  Pros and cons to almost anything we use.  I like them for training but have not attached one for SD yet. 

[Sponsor]

[Michael Janich]

Probably the best thing you can do to educate yourself on this topic is to contact CT and request a copy of the DVD "Shots in the Dark." In my previous life, I shot, edited, and produced all of Paladin Press' videos. I personally shot and edited "Shots in the Dark," working closely with Clyde Caceres (then with CT) on that project. Both Clyde and I did not want the video to degenerate into a CT infomercial, so we focused on a critical examination of the pros and cons of the laser in general. The video was a commercial product for a number of years before CT bought the rights to it to offer it as an informational piece. Since I was personally involved in it, I know it well and feel it examines the issue objectively.

In my work with both Col. Rex Applegate and Jim Cirillo, I came to appreciate the laser for the same basic reason, even though their respective approaches were very different. The Colonel believed that it was ideal because it put the dot on the threat, which is where instinct will typically force you to look. In fact, one of the effects of SNS activation under life-threatening stress is loss (or at least degredation of near-vision acuity. In simple terms, you can't see things at close range--like the sights on your gun. As most folks get older, this happens even without stress--our eyes just change.

Although Cirillo was definitely a sighted-fire guy, he was also open minded enough to explore other forms of aimed fire and what he called "alternative sighting methods." One of Jim's "alternative" shooting positions was what he called the "Geometric Point" or "Nose Point." It's basically a shortened isosceles with the elbows tight against the sides. This positions the gun at chest level right on your body's centerline. If you simply square your shoulders with the target, you get COM hits. Add a laser to it, and you've got a good close-range shooting platform that allows a wide field of vision.

My personal approach to lasers (I have them on several of my guns) is to tune the placement of the dot so it rides right on top of my front sight when I have a proper sight picture. In this way, rather than looking over the sights to see the dot (as Rob mentioned, a common problem), the same exact shooting position makes both the sights and the dot visible. If the battery goes out and the dot disappears, there's no major transition to the sights.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

Mike

P.S. From a training perspective, you may want to check out the article I did for SWAT a few months ago on using lasers for training.

[weads]

My experience with lasers is only a month long, but I think the type of weapon comes into play as well. I go to the range every week with a Colt Commander .45, Colt Mustang .380 and a recently purchased Kel-Tek P3-AT. The Kel-Tek is my primary carry weapon. I am used to the “front sight” on the Colts, but quite frankly there is not a whole lot of sight picture on the Kel-Tek. The disadvantage of carrying family heirlooms (my father’s weapons with letters from the Colt Historian) in the event something does go wrong means I may never get them back from the authorities. On top of that I am a skinny guy and concealing the .45 is a problem for me. OTOH, I will not hesitate to deploy them if that is my only option. 

As Mike Janich said: “My personal approach to lasers (I have them on several of my guns) is to tune the placement of the dot so it rides right on top of my front sight when I have a proper sight picture. In this way, rather than looking over the sights to see the dot (as Rob mentioned, a common problem), the same exact shooting position makes both the sights and the dot visible.” works. Good advise in my opinion!

I have heard the old “well the batteries may die” argument. I discount it. You change the batteries on smoke detectors twice in a year; do the same for your laser! Smoke detectors and firearms are both life saving devices in my book! If laser failure means that much to you, you have a problem in your training. I routinely cover the beam with a piece of masking tape to reinforce traditional shooting skills.

I am not a corporate shill, but Crimson Trace makes a great product and the customer service is a pleasant, refreshing surprise. My degrees are in electrical/electronic engineering and I can say that they make an excellent product IMHO. 

My two cents!

Kelly

[tombogan03884]

When you change your laser and smoke detector batteries take your fire extinguishers, turn them upside down and give them a good shaking to prevent the dry chemical from caking. I know it's off topic but seemed like an appropriate place for a reminder of something most folks overlook.

[tnroadrunner]

First let me say I'm a lefty.  I have an XD9 Service that is my carry gun.  I have been on the CT forum and they say I have to keep my thumps lower, but when I do my grip does not feel right.  I have tried the display model they had in my local gun store and I can't seem to get my thumps out of the way.  Any suggestions?

[Harmony Hermit]

For someone like myself, who has had screwed up eyesight since birth, CT is a godsend. I am not able to see handgun sights clearly without special glasses, and I cannot function normally while wearing those glasses. My distance  (Normal wear) lenses are useless with handgun sights. I have always compensated for this by essentially a form of point shooting. My guns have big red inserts in the front sights. But accuracy suffers, untill I installed my first laser.

My first laser was a lasermax in a G30. Worked well for what it is but I really prefer the 1911. I now have CT grips on my 1911's and would not consider any other arrangement. In my case since I always wear distance glasses concentrating on the dot is more natural for me. Even in bright summertime daylight I can make out and acquire the dot at 15 yards.

In low light without my prescription the dot is easy to see on the target.

And I have yet to have a battery go dead. Even the lasermax is still on it's original battery installed in 1998. It is starting to get a bit weak

And if the battery fails the gun still works.