In A Dangerous World........

[tombogan03884]

The Romans seemed to think the same way about Christians, see how well that worked. The fact is that with the exception of a couple minor little dust ups, the original Jihad that led the Caliphate of Baghdad to the very gates of Paris and led to Spain being colonized for a few hundred years, and the crusades where we indiscrimantly slaughtered God knows how many so rich folks could visit a manger, we've had fairly peacable relations with the muslim world. We coud do so again once the present unpleasantness is over, so long as we make it clear that we won't tell them how to live (however distasteful we find shari'a) if they understand they better do the same or face the consequences.
FQ13

Only because we kicked the crap out of them in the war against the Barbary pirates.
I will point out that WE did not start hijacking planes from Muslim countries in the 60's, WE did not murder THEIR citizens for being Pro Nazi, or Pro Soviet, and the World Trade Center (attacked TWICE ) was not in Arab lands.
Your grasp of medieval history is not very good either. What connection is there between Christian Pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem, and the massacre of Coptic Christians that occurred when the Islamic hordes conquered North Africa.
If Muslim aggression against the west was in response to the Crusades, (an idiotic proposition that ignores historical fact)
Why did that aggression not end with the fall of the last Crusader Kingdoms at Acre in 1302, but instead continued over 380 more years until the last Battle of Vienna in  1683.

[mudman]

Wrong leadership for that HAZ.

[tombogan03884]

Wrong leadership for that HAZ.

Wrong leadership for ANYTHING that involves "courage" or "integrity".

[fightingquaker13]

Only because we kicked the crap out of them in the war against the Barbary pirates.
I will point out that WE did not start hijacking planes from Muslim countries in the 60's, WE did not murder THEIR citizens for being Pro Nazi, or Pro Soviet, and the World Trade Center (attacked TWICE ) was not in Arab lands.
Your grasp of medieval history is not very good either. What connection is there between Christian Pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem, and the massacre of Coptic Christians that occurred when the Islamic hordes conquered North Africa.
If Muslim aggression against the west was in response to the Crusades, (an idiotic proposition that ignores historical fact)
Why did that aggression not end with the fall of the last Crusader Kingdoms at Acre in 1302, but instead continued over 380 more years until the last Battle of Vienna in  1683.

I'm not arguing that the Crusades started it. As I made clear, the muslims invaded Europe three hundred years before the Crusades (a fact they seem to elide when they call us crusaders, as though they didn't start the whole holy war thing). What I am saying is that most muslims are about as on board with the jihadis as most Christians are with the religious right. They, like us,just want to get on with their lives and leave politics to those with way too much leisure time. We need to keep it that way and not engage in stupidly provcative acts that will forever change the balance.
This holds true for the pirates. They aren't in this sense any more muslim than the mob is Catholic. They are businessmen engaged in a criminal enterprise that is seen as such by the majority of the muslim world. Yes the average Arab might enjoy seeing us humiliated, but that doesn't mean they see these guys as heroes or think they are in it for anything but the money. This is the point we must bear in mind. The majority of the muslim world didn't have a problem with our invasion of Afghanistan, thinking the Taliban had brought it on themselves. What we need to do is make it clear to the pirates that we won't tolerate this and that there are healthier ways of making a living. I've repeatdly argued for arming the ships, and if that won't fly for legal reasons, I bet it would be a lot cheaper to put a squad of US Marines on every US flagged vessel in those waters than maintaing our current armada. It would also be a hell of lot more effective as well since there is no way we'd be in this mess if a half dozen jar heads had been on that boat to begin with. The point is we are dealing with a nuisance, there is no need to turn it into a holy war. Just ensure that pirates know that every US flagged vesel is a no go, and hope other nations follow suit. We should even put our guys on foreign ships, if they pay the cost. Problem solved, crisis averted.
FQ13

[PoorSoulInJersey]

I would think gun owners, of all people, would understand the concept of a few people ruining it for everyone.

OK, so there are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. How many of them have every killed anyone, in a terrorist incident or otherwise? About as many Christians that have killed someone perhaps?

Just because Christians kill in large numbers with airplanes and tanks instead of whatever they can scrounge up at the local army surplus store does not make it any better.

The US might use the claim that "it's at war" to defend those actions, but the other side will make the same claim. That's the problem with anyone who says "you're either with us or against us", because both sides are claiming the same thing! Now, the fact that we at least try to focus those efforts on the people we are at war against it at least a start. The stuff going on in Iraq (with what Muslims are doing to each other) right now is closer to something out of The Godfather than anything war related. Think of the US Marines as the police, and it's not a stretch.

If someone else invaded the US, how do you think you would respond? It would have nothing to do with their religion or yours, it would have to do with you wanting these people out of your country. If someone was over here trying to install Sharia as a way of life, we'd be ticked too. Just because the US says they are making it a "better" place does not mean the people living there are any better off.

I tell you what, as soon as you're done collecting every gun from every gun owner in the US because they are all criminal lunatics, then you can start working on people in other cultures.

[Sponsor]

[Hazcat]

PSJ,

I'm not much of a typist so I'll let TomBogan fix your myopic view of the Muslim religion cult.

[PoorSoulInJersey]

PSJ,

I'm not much of a typist so I'll let TomBogan fix your myopic view of the Muslim religion cult.

NEWSFLASH: they think the same thing about us.

Does that make one group right? If both groups get what they want, you have two dead civilizations, with billions of people who didn't really care caught in the middle.

The first step in any kind of progress is being able to tolerate (read: stop killing) each other.

[Hazcat]

Gee, sorry.  Mooselimbs are SOOOOOOOOOOOO exactly the same as us.  My bad. 

[PoorSoulInJersey]

Gee, sorry.  Mooselimbs are SOOOOOOOOOOOO exactly the same as us.  My bad. 

I bet if you got a bunch of them in a room and actually TALKED to them, you may find more in common than you think.

They want to feed their family, enjoy life, play some sports/games with their friends, and worship their God. They also don't like people who don't speak their language and have different beliefs from their own.

This is different from us how?

[fightingquaker13]

I would think gun owners, of all people, would understand the concept of a few people ruining it for everyone.

OK, so there are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. How many of them have every killed anyone, in a terrorist incident or otherwise? About as many Christians that have killed someone perhaps?

Just because Christians kill in large numbers with airplanes and tanks instead of whatever they can scrounge up at the local army surplus store does not make it any better.

The US might use the claim that "it's at war" to defend those actions, but the other side will make the same claim. That's the problem with anyone who says "you're either with us or against us", because both sides are claiming the same thing! Now, the fact that we at least try to focus those efforts on the people we are at war against it at least a start. The stuff going on in Iraq (with what Muslims are doing to each other) right now is closer to something out of The Godfather than anything war related. Think of the US Marines as the police, and it's not a stretch.

If someone else invaded the US, how do you think you would respond? It would have nothing to do with their religion or yours, it would have to do with you wanting these people out of your country. If someone was over here trying to install Sharia as a way of life, we'd be ticked too. Just because the US says they are making it a "better" place does not mean the people living there are any better off.

I tell you what, as soon as you're done collecting every gun from every gun owner in the US because they are all criminal lunatics, then you can start working on people in other cultures.

I agree (mostly) with your view. Live and let live. If the other side breaks the rules, then the game changes as it did in Afghanistan. I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again, I am a dyed in the wool feminist and the way these people treat women who simply want equality sickens me. They treat half their population as slaves and under the taliban and the Saudis sentence them to a life time of house arrest unless their owner (husband father etc) chooses to put them on a leash and take them for a walk. However, there are limits to power, and the quickest way way to lose it is to exceed those limits. The women of the muslim world will have to fix it on their own, the same way the women of the christian world did. We can't go to war with every bad guy out there or we will burn ourselves out in a generation. Its one thing to dissaprove of someone else's culture, its quite a different thing to invade them "for their own good" (socialist much?). All we need is detante, not alliance, not a love in, just a stable, pragmatic, mutually beneficial peace. The peace must necessarily be an armed one, as everyone on this board knows. However, the price you pay for being able to live the way want is to allow others to do the same.
FQ13  who firmly believes that good fences and adequate fire power makes good neighbors