In A Dangerous World........

[PoorSoulInJersey]

No, the mooslims lived in Europe,....

My point was just that both religions have done horrible things. I wasn't trying to say anything beyond that.

Nor do you listen to them today - their stated goal is a world caliphate - and that means us and our descendants as mooslims.

How is that different from Christianity? Or Judiasm? Or Democrats?

[PoorSoulInJersey]

Let me make sure I understand. Your solution to dealing with the Muslim world is:

Quick, kill them all!

I hate to break it to you, but that's what most of America expects gun owners to think. "Shoot first, worry about longer term effects later".

Maybe they're not as wrong about you as you like to claim.

[PegLeg45]

You might be right about that.I guess McVey doesn't count because he bombed a government building? Going back to my earlier question, if there were Saudi or Iraqi troops living in the US, do you think anyone here would attack them? Or would we just be good Christians and let them be?

Christianity also teaches that anyone who's not one of us is going to hell and it's a Christian's responsibility to convert and save them.

I don't remember the last time a Muslim invaded most of Europe, allied themselves with the Japanese, and started a World War while killing millions of civilians in camps. That was all Christian. Oh, wait, now that I think about it, I do remember something like that... a Christian just did it more recently and added the camp idea.

If I'm not mistaken, the people who landed in the US and slaughtered the indigenous people were Christian ("seeking religious freedom" as the classic story goes).

Right now, the Muslim extremist groups are killing more Iraqis than they are Americans. Their actions are closer to LA Gangs shooting up a neighborhood. Yeah, they don't want the US there. They also have their own internal beefs to settle.

If you want to blame other religions for past atrocities, you've got to remember that it goes both ways. There isn't a religion out there that doesn't have members who have done heinous things in its name. Sometimes the leaders of that religion were even involved. I guess we could say the same things about countries. People from a country can do something horrible just as well as the government can, whether they were working together or not.

McVeigh didn't have the backing of a particular religion.
Being a "_________ " (insert Christian Faith of your choice) and doing something bad doesn't mean that the church is in support of what you did.
The bastards that flew four planes into three buildings and a field were praised by Muslims around the world. And yes, before you say it, they were denounced by some also.

I'm not disputing that over the past 1500 years, many of the things that were done in the name of Christianity were reprehensible, but one BIG difference between the Christian and Muslim religions, is that Christianity seems to have learned at least a little from its mistakes of the past.

You can't blame the Holocaust on Christianity. Hitler was a lunatic with an agenda. He was not acting on behalf of or with the support of an 'organized religion'. Hitler was acting on behalf of Hitler.

I guess to me, and this is just my opinion, the BIG difference is that Christians as a 'whole religion' have evolved somewhat in that we don't sanction terrorist acts as a whole.
The Muslim religion is still basically living and acting as they did a 1000 years ago.

[Hazcat]

You say the KKK is a fringe group. I say Radical Islam is a fringe group.

What makes you say that radical Islam is the majority?

The outrage I have heard from the mooselimbs about the actions of the radicals.

In case you don't understand, here is the sound of that outrage ****Crickets****

[fightingquaker13]

FQ, PSJ,

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Islam is NOT like us. Period!  Look up CAIR and their stated goals, look up how they treat all other religions.

And don't even get me started on 'Palestine!"  NO SUCH COUNTRY, never was.  If they just want peace then they can go live in other muslim countries, OH WAIT no they can't because Egypt, Syria, et al WILL NOT TAKE THEM IN!  Why?  Cause they WANT to wipe out Israel, and to do that they need to keep the pot stirred!

STOP being so naive!

Sorry, guys but I am ALL OUT of patience on this subject!

Haz
First of all, "mooselimbs"? What are you, five? You're better than that and I know you're teaching your son better. As my great grandaddy used to say, "There may be a time when you need to kill a man, but there's never a reason to be rude to him". Wise words.

Secondly, as far as Palestine never being a state the Brits (let alone the Indians) could say the same about us. This callous dismisal of Palestinian rights (not from you but others) has long pissed me off. I have been friends with Palestinians in college and taught many since. A few years back I had a Palestinian student come to my office on the first day of class to dicuss her senior thesis. She broke down in tears and actually started hitting me because I hadn't answered her emails over the summer. (The reason being I blocked my work account, figuring break meant break, so I could work on my dissertation). She lived in Ramallah and the whole town had been under curfew for four months and she could only leave the house for 2hrs once a week lest she be kiled (or worse, and yes there are thugs in uniform in every army) by Israeli soldiers. She had to get an escort from the US embassy, because she had a green card, to get back to school. School work was the only thing keeping her sane.She is a Marianite Christian. Are you going to be able to look me, or yourself, in the eye and say you wouldn't pick up a gun under those circumstances?

Don't tell me you're sick of it Haz, because I am also sick of subsidizing this BS with my tax dollars. Yes, Israel is an ally. Yes I believe the jews have a right to their own state. Yes, I believe we have some debts to pay from the US St. Louis and other acts of passive complicity with the Nazi's. Yes, if I were forced to live in the middle east, Israel would be my first choice.BUT, to simply condemn "mooselimb" extremism and not also condemn the jewish extremism displayed by the settelers who claim land that was never theirs because "God said so" seems a bit hypocritical.
The bottom line is that muslims are people JUST LIKE US. They just have a different faith. What do you think the odds would be of you becoming a Christian if you had born in Saudi Arabia? If you think they're good I'll have you buy me a lotto ticket. Yet you would be the same guy you are now, just with a different world view. We are shaped by our culture and experiences, not our birth. This is why viewing people as alien and other just because of their faith is self defeating. Experience with folks who deride you makes you hostile (cf the posts on the ABC gun thread) having them take you seriously changes that and builds trust. I'm not a pacifist or I wouldn't be on this board. I have a .357 in my pocket as I type this. I just believe that there are a lot more things that unite us than there are that divide us and that ignoring that basic fact will create enemies that you don't need to make.
Fightingquaker13

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

I bet if you got a bunch of them in a room and actually TALKED to them, you may find more in common than you think.
..........
.

........... Live and let live. If the other side breaks the rules,............ I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again, I am a dyed in the wool feminist and the way these people treat women who simply want equality sickens me. ............. All we need is detante, not alliance, not a love in, just a stable, pragmatic, mutually beneficial peace. ..........

I work in the oil and gas business...I've been talking to them for 25+ years.  Just because someone has been in a position of authority over some of them doesn't mean they respect or like you....it's a cultural thing.  They respond to authority.....strength and force...that's how Sadaam was in power and had a peaceable society and that's how Col. Kadaffi has a peaceable society.  As soon as they believe they are on par with you so much for the respect.

If you think you can talk to them like your neighbor and reason with them you have no clue about their culture.  I tire of this nonsense BS but perhaps some of my fellow citizens might get it someday and be able to save their lives or assist in saving the nation. 

For instance....let's say you stop at a quick stop and send your son in for a bag of chips or something.  Then some muslim slaps the dog poo out of him and you launch in to see what's going on.  The muslim says he didn't slap him but you saw it.  You say he's just a liar.  If you think he's a liar then you don't get it.  We will never be able to discuss this among ourselves and make progress when you cling to the absolute childishness of framing them in your cultural model.   

You don't get their culture and you are judging the rest of us who do get it.  He's not lying in his culture...you are less than human and certainly the boy, in this example, is.  In his culture, without force to protect you, you are hardly worth the effort to kill. 

Love, peace, understanding and mutual respect for ideas will solve everything....if you have no problem with extinction.

I for one am not so naive as to believe that understanding and mutual respect is a solution for relations with a people who think such things are a foolish and weak-minded character flaw to be exploited.

[Rastus]

..............She is a Marianite Christian. .............The bottom line is that muslims are people JUST LIKE US. ..........

An impassioned plea for muslims using a Christian....that's called apples and oranges.

Not just like us.

[tombogan03884]

You people who are defending those ignorant murdering Camel f%$king, rag heads, who wipe their asses with their hand, don't know what you are babbling about. I have a suggestion, why don't you READ the Koran instead of getting your information from those "religion of Peace everything is America's fault" propaganda broadcasts on the MSM.
Jihad is one of the 5 main tenets (or pillars) of the Islamic cult (Islam translates to "submission).
Christianities dominant sects teach the "Golden Rule" do unto others as you would be done unto. Islams dominant sect (the Wahabi's) preach the "verses of the sword", the only excuse for a muslim to be friends, or associate with Christians or Jews is to lull their suspicions before KILLING THEM.
Hitler gassed the wrong race. You people should learn from the lies of the gun grabbers, do your own research before spouting this touchy feely bullshit.
Tom, Who lost friends in Beirut to the murdering motherf&$kers.

PS, FQ using a Marinite CHRISTIAN as a defense of ISLAM underscores your ignorance.

[fightingquaker13]

An impassioned plea for muslims using a Christian....that's called apples and oranges.

Not just like us.

So what if she was a muslim? What the hell would that change? She should get preferential treatment as opposed to her friends and neighbors because of where she spent the sabbath? If you can't see what's wrong with that I can't help you. Seriously man, take a deep breath and repeat the words "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" or if you're more religious in nature try "God is no respecter of persons (isert nations as well)". It wil do you a world of good.
FQ13 making an impassioned plea for the soul of a Christian, how ya' like them apples?

[tombogan03884]

PSJ, People protest AGAINST the Klan, those camel humping subhumans cheered on 9-11.

FQ, What I find to be self evident is that when a group of people has been waging war on your culture for 1,000 years you should kill them their women and their children, barbaque their goats and till their fields with salt.