Waterboarding

[TAB]

You don't suppose our intel guys have figured that one out? Of course the info has to be vetted, maybe by waiting a few days and hitting them again with the water and see if the story is the same. Very simple as a start.

What I find most interesting is that our own military has stopped waterboarding its own ranks as a means to toughen them up in case they are captured. It turns out it is so effective, they had 100% giving everything up - accurately. And this was among Seals, Spec Ops, Green Berets, etc., not just the rank and file. That says a lot about its usefulness.

bho's ploy was to expose our secrets to the world to shame us as a country and to make our intel people's jobs just that much harder.

I think you put alot of faith in our "intellagence"  agentcys... take 9/11 for example, there was so many red flags that were known ahead of time.

[2HOW]

I think some on here are a little wrong in their thinking. Were not talking about a standing army, a national army. Were talking about rebels, and worst. The Geneva convention does not by any means refer to these animals. These animals are terrorists at best and abominations of their faith . My opinion is we kill and extract information in any way possible. They have relinquished their rights under any law by their actions. I'm talking about the tali ban and the  "extreme " Muslims. How anyone can stick up for these animals  blows my mind. And no we wouldnt expect the Iraq army to torture, as we wouldnt any army. Have we tortured any countrys army members?  Not to my knowledge.

[Pathfinder]

I think you put alot of faith in our "intellagence"  agentcys... take 9/11 for example, there was so many red flags that were known ahead of time.

No, I'm thinking if you figured it out then they probably did too - a long time ago. I think most of the agents on the street - the tips of the spear - are very sharp. It is the dullards in the bureaucracies that make the spear, well, dull.

[tt11758]

No, I'm thinking if you figured it out then they probably did too - a long time ago. I think most of the agents on the street - the tips of the spear - are very sharp. It is the dullards in the bureaucracies that make the spear, well, dull.

And therein lies a major part of the problem.  We as a country expect results from our intelligence community, but at the same time hamstring them in the methods they are allowed to use to produce results.  We want accurate intelligence, but nobody wants to get their hands dirty.

[PegLeg45]

No, I'm thinking if you figured it out then they probably did too - a long time ago. I think most of the agents on the street - the tips of the spear - are very sharp. It is the dullards in the bureaucracies that make the spear, well, dull.

I agree with you, Pathfinder.

I have a good friend that I have known since around the third grade who is a field agent with the FBI. He's always been pretty sharp. We stay in touch regularly and he came home for Christmas a few years ago and we were discussing his current 'at the time' assignment. He had just transferred to Virginia and was working in the anti-terrorism section of the Bureau. His job was to prepare the daily assessment for his boss to hand to Mr. Bush every morning at the 'alphabet' briefing. He was privileged to 'eyes only' information, so I didn't even bother to ask what was in the reports. I knew he couldn't tell me straight out. He did allow that if the citizens saw the info that he saw, in the media, it could cause panic because 'we' don't know even half of what is going on in the anti-terrorism world.

I said all that to say this, this is a different world than fifty years ago.... by a long shot. As I said before, the 'rules' have changed. We have to 'fight the fight we're faced with' and sometimes that means 'by any means necessary' to get the job done and keep Americans from future harm. I sleep better at night knowing that there are people out there capable of doing that.

We have two choices when dealing with terrorists.....
Give it back to 'em harder than they give it to us, or cower in the corner like rats in a sewer.


Now, back to the waterboarding............ I'll still bring the buckets.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

"PS For anybody who thinks I'm an idealistic idiot (yes you Tom) bear in mind that the Nazis summarily executed or worse, captured Sovs. Our guys, and the Brits were generally, though not always, treated ok (for very large values of ok, but still a lot better than the alternative). This was in part motivated by racial ideology, but also because they knew we were treating their guys decently. And this was from the folks that brought you Auschwitz.
FQ13"

More selective history, The treatment received by Soviet POWs was a direct result of the actions of Stalin, Commisars were shot out of hand, the starvation suffered by Soviet POWs was because STALIN would not allow them to recieve red cross packages, US and British POWs were supplying their guards with chocolate and cigarettes they could not get outside the camps. Your asinine excuse that it will cause poor treatment of US prisoners fails to take into account treatment received from the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Arabs over the last 68 years.
Waterboarding ain't shit.  In Belfast and Beirut they had some neat tricks with a Black and Decker, (Belfast Hospitals are the best in the world at rebuilding kneecaps ), I could break most people with just a wall, a pail (empty) and a length of broom handle.

[1911 Junkie]

......I could break most people with just a wall, a pail (empty) and a length of broom handle.

Tease! 

But really, if you did care to elaborate.................

[Timothy]

I don't want to appear too biased but I repeat, the rest of the world can BITE me!

Thomas, do you need a second?

[tombogan03884]

so now the question is, at what point is it not worth one american life?

If it had not worked. While some of you are sounding kind of soft here I'll point out that 1911 is right you compare intel from several sources.  While it may or may not be true that torture gets bad intel, BG's knowing you have it in the tool box will get you better intel without using it. But in that case you MUST occasionally torture the hell out of some one just to remind every one else.

[tombogan03884]

Tease! 

But really, if you did care to elaborate.................

The "Stress positions" used by the Brits on IRA suspects,
1) Suspect "assumes the position" as if being frisked, you put the bucket over his head, then kick his feet out further and wider apart, this puts most of their weight on their hands and arms, wallop pail at random intervals.
2) Suspect kneels on floor with broomstick behind knees
This is the one the IRA and Shiites used, it has also been included in Al Queda training manuals
3) Using a battery powered drill and 1/2-3/4 inch Spade bit, drill through knee caps elbows and other joints.
4) Isolation, Keep the suspect isolated in a confined space with no access to the out side, keep them awake and feed them at random times, play tapes of someone screaming their toenails out in the next room, continue for at least 72 hours.