Interesting news from Tactical Wire

[PegLeg45]

5.56 out of an AR is gret at 300 yards plus, but it doesn't have the umph at 100 feet in urban combat?

Seems pretty clear to me Tom. But its silly to argue about this. The point is we need a bigger round and a tougher platform. The AK will work for a carbine, not a battle rifle, but it aint going to happen no matter how much sense it makes. Given that, the 6.8 for carbine or .308 for battle rifle will work. Probably  not seeing the .308 either. Honestly though, can you imagine the money we would save and how happy the average grunt would be if they were given a new and improved M14, FN FAL or AK over the M16/M4?Can you picture much money we would save by being able to skip trials and just buying the licence and starting production tommorow? But hey, that makes sense. We can't have that.
FQ13

I guess what I was getting at was how can it have more "umph", as you put it, at 300+ yards than at 100 feet?
From 300 to 600 you are getting into it's medium to minimum effective range as far as man-stopping power. I know some will disagree with that statement, but that's my opinion.

Don't take me wrong, FQ, I most certainly agree with the' bigger round needed' argument, and really like the .308. It's just that your comment seemed backwards and somewhat contradictory as far as muzzle velocity goes. That's all.

[fightingquaker13]

I guess what I was getting at was how can it have more "umph", as you put it, at 300+ yards than at 100 feet?
From 300 to 600 you are getting into it's medium to minimum effective range as far as man-stopping power. I know some will disagree with that statement, but that's my opinion.

Don't take me wrong, FQ, I most certainly agree with the' bigger round needed' argument, and really like the .308. It's just that your comment seemed backwards and somewhat contradictory as far as muzzle velocity goes. That's all.

Its cool Peg, and I could be ass backwards here. My thought was killing power vs stopping power". At 300 meters, I'll settle for him being shot and yelling for a medic, he's far away and out of the fight. At 30 meters, I want him dead right the hell now. .556 ain't going to do that as reliably as 7.62x39, .308 or 6.8. If its marginal for 250 ilbs. hogs, its equally marginal for other mammals of similar size.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

 It even takes multiple hits to stop the 100 to 150 pound rice burners our troops have been shooting for 40 years.
But a lot of that is not related to the CALIBER. It is more a function of the 1800's bullet technology that our troops are saddled with. civilians are not limited to non expanding FMJ and can use more effective ammunition.

[fightingquaker13]

It even takes multiple hits to stop the 100 to 150 pound rice burners our troops have been shooting for 40 years.
But a lot of that is not related to the CALIBER. It is more a function of the 1800's bullet technology that our troops are saddled with. civilians are not limited to non expanding FMJ and can use more effective ammunition.

The no "dum dum" clause of the Geneva convention is arguably the stupidest international agreement ever made since the Roman Britians invited the Saxons to "protect" them from the Vikings. Honestly, we can use fuel air explosives and napalm but not hollow points? Its like living in New Jersey. Five times with FMJ or once with JHP,the result is the same, but at least you're legal.
FQ13 Who figures this must make sense to someone who understands why when you shoot someone you don't mean to kill him. That person is not me.

[Timothy]

It was the Hague Convention, not the Geneva that limits troops to ball ammunition.

[Sponsor]

[billt]

Wasn't there something that also forbids some types of shotgun ammunition in war?  Bill T.

[Timothy]

Laws of War :

Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.

This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.

[Badgersmilk]

It even takes multiple hits to stop the 100 to 150 pound rice burners our troops have been shooting for 40 years.
But a lot of that is not related to the CALIBER. It is more a function of the 1800's bullet technology that our troops are saddled with. civilians are not limited to non expanding FMJ and can use more effective ammunition.

   Now that's funny there!   

I say split the differance between a military carbine, and BR.  Have Glock get off their "Perfect" butt's and poop us out a semi-auto .308 rifle with a 18" med.-heavy barrel!  The FAL is a fine starting point for whatever their new design may be.

My personal favorite option:  Tell our military.  "Here's your catalog, start shopping." 

http://www.dsarms.com/

[cooptire]

What about the Israeli Galil? An AK base that supposedly addressed the shortcomings of the AK like sight radius and improvements over the few negatives that the AK has.

[TAB]

its still a ak,  a whole slew of reasons why we won't use it.